Be Content with Ordinary and Successful by Diligence

Zhang Yong (hereinafter referred to as Zhang): Nice to meet you, Mr. Su. You used to engage in the works of foreign affairs section for a long time and you have experienced the role switching from a diplomat to a scholar. Would you like to make a brief introduction to your life experience and the realizations you have gained from the role switching?

Su Zhenxing (hereinafter referred to as Su): I was born in a poor family in the regions south of the Yangtze River. I am the youngest child in my family. Though I was loved dearly by my families, my destiny is not better than those of my brothers and sisters. I discontinued my studies after attending the free legacy primary school for four years and when I was 11 year old, I became an apprentice. Maybe it is for the reason that I have experienced the sweets and bitters of life at an early age that I can fully understand what kind of feeling Gao Yubao had when he shouted “I want to go to school”! I never gave up the hope for pursuing studies during the 5 years when I was an apprentice and was working. I always “read books with at late nights”. I read any book that was available, even though I only had a smattering of knowledge. In 1953, I got the opportunity to enter into school again. With the help of the student subsidies provided by the government, I completed my study at middle school and was recommended to enter university as a preparatory student to take further study in Russia.

The change of “role” during one’s whole life is inevitable, but it is not suitable to have too many such changes. The life span is as short as sever decades, one who fires up the choppers and flies away may have difficulty in making achievements. In the early 1981, I was transferred from the post in the Ministry of Communication of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China to the post in Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. It can be an important role switching. However, it was not very difficult for me. There are some other reasons. When I studied at the Spanish Major of the department of Spanish at Peking University, I was appointed as the directional training of the Institute of Latin America Studies. I knew what I would do in the future. Therefore, in addition to learning the foreign language well, I also did extensive reading since the rationales, professional knowledge and relatively good style of writing are necessary for doing researches. Foreign language is a kind of approach. The library of Peking University is famous for its great number of a collection of books and it is also a fortune to us students. During the period between my graduation and the start of “the Great Cultural Revolution”, I was working for a period of time at the Institute of Latin America Studies and I understand the research works to certain degree. After that, I was transferee to hold the post in the Ministry of Communication of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China in charge of foreign affairs. The work of handling foreign affairs is not just to serve as a translator or welcoming visitors and see them off as it seems to be judging by the face of it. The good command of foreign language is not enough. As a matter of fact, the work of handling foreign affairs cannot do without investigation and research. If you do not understand the conditions of other countries or the person you receive, what task can you perform? It is the same to the academic exchange. If you do not have any knowledge and cannot point out the principles, the foreign scholars will feel that it is boring to communicate with you. The Ministry of Communication of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China has the good tradition of laying emphasis on investigation and survey. In 1974, I was sent to work at the embassy in foreign country. The conditions there were better. However, the most important thing is to make good use of such conditions. Firstly, you should set your mind on it and become a person with high aspirations and determination. You should be eager for getting more understanding of conditions and be willing to work harder as well; secondly, you should have a command of some professional theories and knowledge; thirdly, you should master some methods for doing investigations and surveys. As I recall now, the three-year work in the embassy contributes a lot to the professional research of Latin America that I am engaged in after that, since what I have brought back is not only some perceptual knowledge. I also made certain kind of analysis and research on some importance issues and got some rational knowledge as well as accumulated a batch of information. The information for some articles I published after that was collected at that time.

With respect to the role switching, what I really think is difficult is the period after I held the post of deputy director in 1982. At that time, there was no director. Immediately after I held the post, I had to face the problem how to lead and manage the scientific research of the whole institute. It was a brand new challenge for me. However, what I thought was the same. As what I had ever said before, as long as you set your mind on something, you will be able to master the knowledge you did not understand.

Zhang: As is known to all, all scholars regard the academy as their life. Over the years, you have obtained a great number of research achievements by means of your research with great concentration and diligence in writing. Many of your unique opinions and profound points of view aroused great repercussions in the society. Would you please explain your most representative points of view combing with your academic experience?

Su: I cannot agree with you on all of the “unique”, “profound” points of view and the “great repercussions in the society” that you said. In our country, the research on Latin America used to be involved by a small number of scholars in the scope of the history of the world. The comprehensive research from a multidisciplinary point of view did start from the early 1960s. With the efforts over decades, we have made great progress indeed. However, we shall analyze such progress from two aspects. On one hand, in general this subject is started from a blank so the starting point is very low. Compared to those subjects that are more mature and have a high starting point, I am afraid that we cannot estimate such progress to be so high. On the other hand, the progress we have made is the joint efforts of the former and current generation of scholars. There is no doubt that the individual contribution made by the scholars is very important as well. For example, my teacher Professor Luo Rongqu from Peking University is universally   acknowledged as the outstanding delegate who does research on Latin America in our country. He has made outstanding achievements. Compared to him, the achievement we make is much less. Among the scholars of the same generation, many people have made greater achievements than mine.

At the very beginning, I held the post of research director in the Institute of Latin American Studies. After that, I served as the deputy director and then the director of the Institute. Maybe since I held such a post, I consider more about some major issues we are facing in the field of subject building and scientific research. For example, we used to lunch the discussion on the issue of the social nature of counties in Latin America by means of the magazine Research on Latin America in 1980s. Many scholars in China took an active part in it and air their opinions. This discussion urged me to make further consideration on this issue. After that, when I took the charge of compiling the History of Latin America Volume 3, I put forward that the Latin American countries were in the transitory stage “from pre-capitalism to capitalism”. I neither adopted the definition that the Latin American countries were the semi-colonial and semi-feudal societies nor agreed with some foreign scholars on their opinion that the Latin American countries were capitalism “at birth”. It is obvious that the first definition was mainly limited by the background of the age. It continued to use the nature of the old China’s society determined by Chairman Mao Zedong while the latter judge the social nature of the Latin American countries based on the “business capital” or the so-called involvement in “capitalist world market system”. It is because that the development of capitalism in the Latin American countries is progressing step by step that the elimination of pre-capitalism is relatively slow. In terms of politics, this situation is shown by the strong power of conservatives in a long period of time and the power expansion of the capitalist class has to take a long period of time. The radical democratic revolution of the capitalist class seldom happens. The major means of changes in society is shown as improvement rather than revolution; the struggles between the transformation and the anti-transformation take place by turn constantly.

Zhang: The definition of Latin American countries is very important for the researches on Latin American indeed. The teaching materials we use in the Latin American economy class were edited by you in chief. I found that you have cleared up the several hundred year long economic development process from the American Indian age to the present in a distinct way. Why did not you continue to write a The Economic History of Latin America?

Su: To make a systemic sorting and summary of the Latin American economic development process from the American Indian age to the present is a basic work with respect to the subject development. Currently, our researches on Latin America are mainly limited in the scope of the period after the Second World War. We can give no cause for much criticism since we should give priority to the researches on current situation. However, on one hand, as scholars doing researches on Latin American economy, we can not only know the present of Latin America while do not understand its history. On the other hand, many economic and social features of Latin American countries exactly come into being on the basis of the former stage of development. Therefore, when taking charge of compiling the book The Economic Development of Latin America, I wrote the first six chapters in person and laid emphasis on making the development process for those several hundred years clear. To tell the truth, it was very difficult to do so. On one hand, there was no one in China who had ever done this before. On the other hand, there was no a relatively complete economic history of Latin America in the foreign countries. I had to read a great number of works connected with the history and economic history of Latin America as well as the Latin American structuralism and attachment theory etc. so that I can have a relatively systemic concept. In addition, during the period when I took charge of the Institute of Latin America, I had made up my mind to translate The Cambridge History of Latin America, a feature-length, vast and numerous master-piece with the purpose of laying foundation for the overall subject. I am very grateful to the researcher Zhang Sengen for his hard work during the process of organizing the translation and publishing of this book. As a teaching material, it is impossible to compile The Economic Development of Latin America in details. At that time, I had ever considered writing a Economic History of Latin America indeed, but I failed to start writing for various reasons. And now it seems that it is very difficult to do this. It can only be done by you young scholars.

Zhang: Is the main reason why you did not write the monograph of the economic history of Latin America that you devoted yourself in the work of Research on Latin American Course of Modernization during the previous years? Would you please talk about the main opinions in this book?

Su: It is true then. When the project of “Research on Latin American Course of Modernization” was set up, I used to judge and weigh. As far as I was concerned, the research on the course of modernization was closer to the reality of domestic development in China and was to more benefit of taking the scientific research to a leading edge. As for the main opinions in this book, Professor Han Qi from Nankai University has published a book review and made an objective evaluation. I summed up 10 questions in the preface of this book, which are the main opinions in this book. Currently, I wrote an introduction article in Proceedings of Institute. It seems that I have talked a lot about it. Firstly, as far as we are concerned, the course of modernization in Latin American countries can be divided into three stages of development or in other words three development patterns. We call the “breakage type” of transformation in the “extravert type - domestic oriented - extravert type” pattern of Latin America countries the “pendulum phenomenon” of pattern transformation. The defects of such kind of “breakage type” of transformation in pattern include: on one hand, they are all adjusted after one pattern is beset with a crisis and the transformations are passive ones; on the other hand, each transformation brings out the denying of the next pattern to the last one as well as the great change of policies. It leads to the breakage of development process and the serve damage to productivity. No economic growth model or pattern is invariable. When certain kind of specific economic growth pattern has the tendency of being unsustainable, we shall make adjustment decidedly or it will be deep in crisis sooner or later. Secondly, the industrialization of Latin American countries experienced a great repeat during the 1980s and 1990s. The import of Latin American countries had taken the place of industrialization pattern for 50 years. It not only is an important reason why the Latin American countries gradually fall behind with respect to the development in postwar period but also results in server crisis of structural development. During the process of overcoming the crisis, the manufacturing industry experienced a great recession at first, and then the industrialization guidelines came back to the theory of “comparative advantage”. In addition, the hasty market access caused a great number of industrial enterprises to go bankrupt, leading to a great recession in industrialization. Thirdly, the course of modernization in Latin American countries laid unilateral emphasis on the “technical revolution” while neglecting the social changes, which resulted in that a great number of agricultural labor force was squeezed out form agriculture and the countryside and led to the disordering of the course of modernization, bringing about a great quality of problems difficult to be solved. Fourthly, during the course of modernization in Latin American countries, the “struggles between revolution and anti-revolution” existed from start to finish. As an “elite ideology”, the “modern traditionalism” placed undue emphasis on the economic growth and expansion of wealth, requiring maintaining the tradition and was opposed to the revolution in the scope of social structure, values and distribution of power etc. The reason why the social differentiation is so server in Latin American countries is closely related to it. In a word, we must explore a suitable way of the modernization of the developing countries in the contemporary era for the condition of the country and by no means should we indiscriminately imitate the pattern of other countries.

Zhang: You mentioned the social differentiation in Latin American countries, which call a question to my mind. It seems that you are the first scholar in China who pays attention to and research the social problems in Latin America. You have so many works to do and why do you spend so much time and energy in studying the social problems of Latin America?

Su: As a matter of fact, I answered this question just now. We are Chinese scholars and we are always thinking how we can adapt our own researches to the real needs of the country in a better way. In fact, I have no special skill or knowledge of doing researches on social problems but I make unremitting endeavor. I used to learn foreign language at the very beginning so there is no such special skill or knowledge for me. I will learn any knowledge that is necessary for the practical work. On one hand, I work hard at reading books; on the other hand, I learn from the experts who know the ropes. In 1990s, I wrote some articles on the analysis of social problems in Latin American countries. After that, I wrote the book the Development Patterns and Social Conflict – A Perspective of Social Problems in Latin American Countries. One of my basic judgments is that the situation of server social differentiation in Latin American countries is the results of combined action of various kinds of factors including the historical factors, the institutional factors, the alternation of revolution and anti-revolution as well as the deviation in guiding ideology of development etc. It is difficult to solve the problems if the significant measures of reform are not taken. In other words, if we think as long as the economy grows, the problem of polarization between the rich and the poor in the society can be solved in a natural way, it can only be a illusion.

Zhang: I am greatly inspired by the article under the tile of The Frequent Economic and Social Crises in Latin American Countries Are Not Universal Law of Development. How did you draw this conclusion?

Su: As a matter of fact, the title of this article was summarized by a leader. There is no doubt that my article has made a relatively clear expounding of this point of view. The frequent crises are a prominent phenomenon in Latin American countries during the transitional period of GDP 1000 dollars to 3000 dollars per capita. There were a total of three crises that had the influence on the whole region. The first one happened in the society during the early 1960s to the mid 1970s – a political crisis; the second one is the debt crisis that broke out in the early 1980s. As a matter of fact, it was a “structural development crisis”; the third one was the financial crisis that broke out in succession in the mid 1990s. As far as I am concerned, this kind of “frequent crises” phenomenon is a unique on in Latin America. We cannot simply summarize it as certain universal law, even if the various kinds of difficulties and challenges that the Latin America run into in this period (such as interest differentiation between each social bracket, the adjustment of economic growth pattern and development mode, the fragile financial system and the impact of various external factors, among others) had the universality. Now, there is a point of view, according to which, it is a universal law that the society will enter into a period when the contradictions will take place frequently, even the social crises will break out after the GDP reaches 1000 dollars per capita. This point of view is in lack of scientific basis obviously. At least, for the most majority of Latin American countries, the significant social and politic crisis in 1960s did not break out after but before the GDP reaches 1000 dollars per capita. The transformation of economic society will result in the unbalance of the diversification of interest structure and the benefit based relationships of different social brackets. Therefore, the adjustment measures shall be taken in time so as to avoid the sharpened social conflict. However, the specific circumstances in different countries are different from each other. The “quantification” standard of GPD reaching 1000 dollars per capita cannot the only indicator of all intensifying of social conflict; while the social conflicts will not automatically be defused due to that the GDP reaches 3000 dollars per capita. As far as I am concerned, we should extend the time span for the researches on certain problems and we should have sufficient basis in fact. We cannot come to a conclusion without a hitch only on the basis of one period or one matter.

Zhang: You are engaged in the researches on the Latin American economy and politics for a long time. Would you please talk about your basic views and hope on the researches in these fields from a professional point of view?

Su: With respect to the situation of our institute, by the years of efforts, the basic frameworks of the two subjects including Latin American economics and politics have been set up. The monographs we have published and the basic political and economic teaching materials are rich in content. These works not only use the research findings of foreign countries, but also include the opinions of Chinese scholars. It has laid a sound foundation for research. Now the problem is that with respect to the development of subjects, which issues that have been studied to certain degree shall be continue for further research and how can we further the research. Besides, which new issues shall be put on the agenda? We shall have some plans. With respect to the research team, the foundation is laid by the former generation. The conditions of the younger generation are that they have good command of foreign languages universally but the number of people who have a command of Spanish and Portuguese is too small; they are all doctors or masters so they have received good professional training but their understanding of the basis situations of Latin America and professional basic knowledge about Latin America is still insufficient. I am always concerned that the young in the institute “focus on one filed and do not have a sufficient grasp of the overall situation”. I do not know whether this feeling is right or not. I have ever mentioned that I am a little worried about the people who are engaged in researches on international studies that they may have defect in two aspects. One is that they have not so much understanding of the development in China and the other one is that you do not understand a lot about the object of study either. As for us who study the Latin America in particular, it is possible that we will not go there for several times throughout our life. If we do not try hard to overcome such kind of limit, it is hard to figure out how the actual value of our research results well be.

Zhang: With our deepened understanding of Latin America, the value of researches in certain fields of Latin America has been gradually emerging. In particular, as a minor, the experience and lesson from the economic development of Latin America can give us some inspirations for our country’s practices. I wonder what leading-edge issues you pay attention to recently.

Su: Now, the leaders of institute always pay close attention to the leading-edge researches, for example, the 2006 general election and the rise of left wing in Latin America in the field of politics; the trade relation between China and Latin American countries and the financial crisis in Latin America in the field of economics; the trend of foreign policies of the “left wing” governments in Latin America in the field of international relation, among others. However, I also found that there are still some issues deserve our attention. For example, some “left wing” governments in Latin America have at the helm of the states for many years. What reforms on earth have they conducted and what are the effects? As far as I am concerned, both economics and politics shall be studied. Otherwise, how can we judge their trend in the future? In addition, the “socialism in 21^st century” was put forward in Latin America at first. What on earth did the person who put forward this topic say? In other words, what are the basic contents of the “socialism in 21^st century” put forward by him with respect to theory? How the several governments that assert to implement the “socialism in 21^st century” understand the topic and what have they done in fact? We are engaged in the research on Latin America specially and it is our duty to answer such kind of questions.

Zhang: You have held the post of Director of the Institute of Latin America for more than 10 years, what is the administration concept you take? Would you please talk about your experience realization at this aspect? For example, what are your great prides and what make you most regretful?

Su: With respect to my personal experience, administration of the institute is a sense of responsibility or dedication for me. If one wants to have one or two achievements throughout his life, he needs to have a “stage”. The leaders made me the director of institute and they provided me a “stage” as well. I shall strive for playing the role well. No matter what you do, you should shoulder the responsibility that you need to. With respect to “the sense of responsibility”, I have an understanding at another aspect. I always have such a point of view that the establishment of the Institute of Latin America was approved by Chairman Mao and Premier Zhou with written instructions and comments in person. It is an overall arrangement of the first generation of the central leading body of the Party that looked far ahead and aim high and it is also a constituent part of the undertaking of researches on international issues in our country. It has been 46 years since the institute was founded in 1961 and the Institute of Latin America is still the only one institution that makes comprehensive research on Latin America. I always think that though the scale of the Institute of Latin America is not so large, it takes a very important position. The reason is that it is the only one in China. As a director, how can we leave any stone unturned and do not run the institute well? The second realization is that as the director of the institute, I mainly do my workings among the intellectuals so I shall attach more importance to how to unite and respect the intellectuals and how to respect the talents. In addition, I often have a point of view that since I was appointed to be the director of this institute, what can I do without uniting everyone to struggle? Even if you are a great expert, one log cannot prop up a tottering building. Therefore, we shall pay special attention to putting the individual and the collectivity in correct positions rather than thinking of “occupying a commanding position”. The third realization is that the director of institute shall be concerned with the overall development of the subject. With respect to academy, he should have plans, not only considering the current situation but also the future. He should make a good combination of the research in basic science and the theoretical research. He shall also work hard at researches. If he does not do researches in person or lay emphasis on the research of significant issues, or if he does not have a sharp mind, he has no right speak with respect to academy. The fourth realization is that we shall be fair to the greatest extent when handling affairs. It is often said that the institute is a poor organization and it is difficult to run an institute. As far as I am concerned, whether the institute is “poor” or “rich” does not depend on me. However, I will try my best to be fair when handing some affairs so as to make everyone have a good mood. It is possible. Though I say so, it does not mean that I deal with all things in a good way. However, at least I have such a thought and it is in line with the consistent tenet of our Party. What made me most regretful is that though we fostered a group of young backbones at that time, some of them “switched their roles”, transferring to other units or going abroad since I failed to create the conditions that they expected.

Zhang: As some people say, one should learn to behave before learning knowledge. Do you agree with this opinion? Would you please talk about your understanding of the relations among behaving, handling affairs and learning knowledge?

Su: We should learn to behave before learning knowledge and we should also learn to behave before doing works. Those who have poor moral quality will be looked down upon to the greatest extent. We are engaged in researches of social sciences and write articles all day long, writing books and setting up a theory. Regardless of whether you have been aware of it, to certain degree you have an influence of “education” on the society, to say nothing that we are fostering graduate students, being a model for others. The principle of learning to behave has been explained thoroughly by a great number of wise men of all ages. Lots of heroes and exemplary persons have set good examples for us. As far as I am concerned, it is not mainly an issue of theory, but the issue that how the individual puts it into practice.

Zhang: I remember that Wang Guowei has ever summed up the hard and tough way of pursuing studies in a poetic way. The first stage is that “Westerly winds withered trees up last night. Climbing up the stairs and being lonely on the loft, I overlooked the endless distance”; the second stage is that “The dress takes to loosen gradually and I am more and more emaciated, No regretful plying at all, I am rather for her only distressed as I did”; the third stage is that “Hundreds and thousands of times, for her I searched in chaos, suddenly, I turned by chance, to where the lights were waning, and there she stood”. It is thus clear that we shall have the time for “truing by chance” when learning knowledge, or we shall have the courage to “climb up the stairs and being lonely on the loft” and the resolution of “no regretful plying at all”. However, in such a social transformation period now, the academic circles have the atmosphere of flippancy especially when there is a great conflict between the “indifferent post” of academy and the “temptation” of fame and wealth. Would you please give some suggestions to the young scholars who just enter into the door of “academy”?

Su: “Each generation produces its own outstanding talents”, it is the same in the academic circles. Some masters will come to the fore in every period. Wang Guowei is a great scholar. There is no doubt that his spirit of pursuing studies is worth learning by us. However, my mental shackles are not a circumstance to his. I always think that I am just a very ordinary person and I do not have any outstanding superiority. In addition, I have never had the idea of being a famous scholar or a great master. I still remember that I ever wrote a sentence in one poem that “buildings see the mountains while towers see the cloud”. The buildings are built at the foot of a mountain or on the side of a hill, so it is very difficult for them to be as high as the surrounding mountains. There is no need for us to regard ourselves as a tower on the mountain top with the purpose of standing besides the cloud in the sky shoulder to shoulder. With respect to leadership, it is right to propose to foster “great masters”. It is the hope for the whole young generation. Perhaps there will be some “great masters” among your generation. However, my creed is to be “content with ordinary and successful by diligence”. We should admit that we are very ordinary and be content with being ordinary. We are supposed to concentrate on researches and not be impatient and blundering as well. We should work hard to make achievements. One’s achievement may be large or small but even the small achievement is better than on achievement.

I also want to express a little hope for the young scholars in our institute. Regardless of whether you have chosen this major or this major has chosen you, I hope you can insist on being engaged in it. It is true that “researches on Latin America” may be only an “interdisciplinary subject” even in the field of international studies. However, those who are engaged in studies of big country are not always of high level while those engaged in interdisciplinary studies are not always not so good as others either. The key is the individual efforts. One should not reach for what is beyond one's grasp. After setting a target, we shall persist in it and thus you can get somewhere.

Zhang: Mr. Su, it most probably that you have a rich leisure time, since we can always appreciate your poetry reading wonderfully with a silver voice and deep feeling at the get-together every year and the poems are written by yourself. Do you have any work recently? Can you share with us?

Su: We shall be good at adjusting ourselves rather than pursuing studies like a person who lives a life of self-denial and mortification. When I was a student, I often swam, ran and played basketball. I was the member of the basketball representative team of our school and department. I used to be a monitor, a League branch secretary and the director of the department of publicity of the Youth League Committee, among others. In addition, I liked reading some poetries of the Tang and Song Dynasty as well as some prose written in the classical literary style. Now, I am still able to recite the whole of some prose written in the classical literary style. Over the years, the habit of giving consideration to a variety of activities has come into being gradually and I bring this habit into my work. I think all of these are a kind of approach to cultivate one's mind and improve one's character. As for the poem writing you mentioned is another story. I have not studied the rules and forms of classical poetic composition. I just feel free to write some poems in my spare time. It is a method to take place of keeping a diary. As far as I am concerned, one must have some experience and what one sees and hears, as well as some feelings and affection during his life. By means of “poem”, we can write them down with shorter articles to keep them as memories. Therefore, the poems I write are for the purpose of reading by me. After that, the get-together is held every year in the institute and it is required to perform some programs. However, I cannot perform any program. Desperately, I chose some parts of my poems and recited them. It is nothing more but a kind of “muddling through”.

Zhang Yong male, is the assistant research fellow in the Economic Research Center of the Institute of Latin American of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences and doctoral candidate from world economy major at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences who was enrolled in 2005. Currently, he is taking part in the researches of the significant research topic “The Challenge for Building a Harmonious Society” conducted by the Institute that is taken charge of by Su Zhenxing.