The Precise and Punctilious True Scholar and the Great Master Emancipating His Mind

After I received the task of making interview, I concentrated on reading the works written by Mr. Zhou as well as the materials related to Mr. Zhou. For a half month, I have been moved by Mr. Zhou’s academic life and his academic spirit. Every time when I read the works written by Mr. Zhou, I always had an in-depth understanding of his superior consciousness and penetrating judgment with respect to academic researches. In particular, I always had an in-depth understanding of his deep love for academic research and his sense of social responsibility. Every time when I communicated and talked with Mr. Zhou, I can not only feel his precise style of study as a true scholar but also have a strong feeling, what is more important is, of his great efforts made for emancipating his mind as a great master. As an economist with a great number of products, he used to publish nearly 300 articles from 1978 to 1995. A great number of academic opinions including attaching the greatest importance to giving priority to the development of light industry, paying attention to the operation problems of the enterprises as well as strengthening the enterprise management etc. had been the basis for our country to formulate the economic policies at that time. In addition, he used to put forward the point of view that “when doing research on the structure, we shall not only do research on the structure of relations of production but also do research on the structure of productivity. The industrial structure is an important part of the structure of productivity”, which was spoke highly of by the counterparts in the academic circles widely. As a scholar with ideological emancipation, he is good at combining the theoretical, practical, historical and logical methods together and has an insight into Chinese economic development strategy and the development way of socialist industrialization. Though he is nearly 80 years old, he still has relentless pursuit and explore constantly so as to fulfill his duty as a economic researcher.

Dong Li (hereinafter referred to as Dong): Mr. Zhou, I notice that there is a statistical figure that was published in the third issue of the magazine Economist in 1997. It shows that from 1978 to 1995, you took the fifth place among the 56 economists who have a great number of productions. Among the economics whose articles were frequently extracted and published in the corresponding period, you took the second place. As far as I am concerned, among the economics who I know and whose works I have read, you are indeed an economist who not only is prolific but also has broad vision. Would you please talk about your experience of doing academic researches and pursuing studies for us young people by combing with your academic life?

Zhou Shulian (hereinafter referred to as Zhou): My experiences make me be in face of new research tasks constantly. It is not only an opportunity but also a challenge. Every time when I accept the new subject task, I will be very careful just like tread as if on thin ice and be cautious and conscientious to work hard. I hope to make achievement like the bees that make honey. However, in many occasions I am just satisfied with a smattering of knowledge or even touch on it without going into it deeply, therefore my I am short of achievements. The more than 50 years long career of doing research makes me understand that if one who is engaged in researches wants to make achievements it is very important to lay a sound foundation and work hard. However a loose and comfortable environment is also necessary. We shall conscientiously implement the principle of “Flowers of every kind are in bloom and all schools of thoughts contend for attention”. I am grateful that I can run into such an environment after the reform and I am enabled to make a little achievement with respect to researches. There is no doubt that I cannot make these achievements without the assistances of many people. In my family, I never do housework. My wife undertakes all the housework. At work, I get the assistances from other researches and administrative staff, including the Scientific Research Department, the office, the reference room and the typing room, as well as the leaders in the Institute of Industrial Economics.

From 1978 to 1995, the number of articles I wrote is indeed very large. As a matter of fact, I had written tens of articles before the “Great Cultural Revolution”. After the “Gang of Four” was wiped out, I began to publish the articles that criticized the “Gang of Four” from 1979. Since this year, the number of my articles has started to grow constantly. After 1995, I still continued to write a lot of articles. During this period, I also took charge of some administrative affairs. In addition, I used to serve as the chief editor of several monographs.

I am often asked why I am able to write so many articles. My answer is “diligence”. If you say I have some experience of pursuing studies, I think my only experience is to be “diligent”. Since I was very young, I have worked hard at my study. After I graduated from the junior high school, I left my hometown – Liyang County, Jiangsu Province. Then I was admitted to Changzhou Middle School in Jiangsu Province. The school had good spirit and the teachers there were of high level. They were strict to students. I had no relatives and friends in Changzhou. I have nothing else to do but studying. Therefore, the Sundays were also the time for me to study. When I was at the senior high school, I came into contract with the progressive books and I liked to read the books written by the authors with progressive ideas. After I graduated from the senior high school, I was admitted to the School of Freshmen of Tongji University. I used the money that my family sent to me for buying clothes to buy the books written by Guo Moruo, Jian Boyi and Ai Siqi etc. who are all progressives to study. In April 1949, my hometown was liberated and I became a teacher in a primary school. However, I still studied hard. I bought the three volumes version of the Capital translated by Wang Yanan and Guo Dali which was published by Shanghai Joint Publishing Company to study. In 1950, I was admitted to Fudan University. In the daytime, I attended the classes and at night I would go to the library as long as it was open. I would read book in the library. On the night of every Saturday, the recreation and sports secretary of the department was required to take part in the dancing party. I would read books and newspaper in the reading room in the teachers’ office building of our department. On Sunday, I was also reading books. I still remember that one year our class organized a visit to Hangzhou in the spring vacation. All classmates in my class signed up to participate in the visit but there were only Wang Haibo and I as well as the other classmate who did not take part in the visit. We chose to stay at school for study. Therefore, from the senior high school to the university, the weekends were the best time to study as for me. After I started my work in the Institute of Economy, the same was still true. What was different was that I would write articles on the festivals and holidays in addition to reading books. In 1954, the Institute of Economy was moved to Zhongguancun. The young people who were of the similar age with me got married one after another, so there were not so many people who stayed in the institute on weekends. In 1959, the Director Sun Yefang leaded the researches on the socialist economic subjects. I made use of one weekend to invite Mr. Shi Yong to write the “Draft of Outline of Economic Theory of Socialism”. After that, it was revised for many times and was called “the Hegui System”. I was married when I was not young. I did not get married utile 1964. However, I still kept the habit of reading and working on the weekend.

In 1969, the academic department was transferred to a lower level to run the “Five Seven Cadre School” in Xixian County, Henan Province at that time. Then, it was removed from Xixian Country to criticize and denounce the so-called “Five One Six persons”. I participated in both of them but I did not forget to study. Mr. Yan Zhongping who was sharing the dormitory with me brought this Complete Works of Marx &Engels. I borrowed from him and read every one of them with care. The Mao Zedong Thought propaganda team of the People's Liberation Army took charge of the class struggle at that time and they did not allow anyone to read books. The opinion that studying was useless was popular in the society. The academic department of philosophy and social science was also in face of the danger of being dismissed. Therefore, a lot of people lost the enthusiasm to study and they thought they would never have the chance to do researches from then on. Though I also felt that the future of the Institute of Economy was difficult to predict, I still believed that it was impossible for China to give up the researches on economy. Though at that time our works suspended, we would have the opportunity to work sooner or later. If we did not study, how could we fulfill the tasks entrusted by the country and the people in the future! Therefore, I was still diligent and eager to learn knowledge.

In 1979, I transferred from the Institute of Economy to the Institute of Industrial Economy, where I do researches on the issues such as the socialist industrialization, the economic structure and the reform and management of industrial enterprises and so on. In face of a great number of new problems, I overcame the difficulties still by means of diligence. A colleague of the Institute of Industrial Economy changed his profession and after that he said that the research works were very difficult and very arduous! To a certain degree, what he said is true. I used to spend as long as one month in writing an article to criticize the feudal socialism of the “Gang of Four”. The article consisted of four parts. I spent one week in writing the first section, of which I spent five days in collecting and analyzing the literatures and materials and one day in creating the outline and one day in writing the article down. At that time, I lived at the No. 3 East Street, Front Gate. Every night, I took a walk and strolled in the Legation Quarter when I cudgel my brain so as to find out how to write this article well. In the process of writing this article, it was difficult for me to sleep and eat indeed.

When recall these old memories, I can not only feel the pleasure of doing researches but also experience the hardships of doing researches. But for the hardships of doing researches and forgetting food and sleep, how can we enjoy the pleasure of doing researches!

Dong: Mr. Zhou, by reading over your academic works, I have a feeling that you not only lay emphasis to the combination of theory and practice as well as investigation in your academic research but there is another very prominent academic highlight which is you attach importance to make historical studies on the economic issues. Would you please talk about your understanding at the foregoing aspects by combing with your development process of academic researches?

Zhou: I always have the opinion that whether one can make achievement in doing economic research depend on the crucial issue which is the relation between theory and practice. When I was at senior high school, I had a strong interest in social science. Then, I have had the deep love for this subject. After that, I achieve what I wish to study in the department of economics at Fudan University. Since the objective conditions were good, the teachers and classmates were nice and with respect to the subjective aspect, I had good academic record, all of which have crated conditions for me to engage in the economic reaches in the future.

In 1953, I graduated from the university and was allocated to work in the Institute of Economy of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. At that time, the Institute of Economy was just founded and it was located at a quadrangle dwelling in the Nanwanzi, Nanchizi Street which was close to Wangfujing. There were more than 30 people in total in the institute. The researchers were only 20 or so. They were divided in to two groups – the history of economics group and the applied economics group. The Deputy Director Tao Menghe of the Chinese Academy of Sciences held a concurrent post of the direct or the institute. Wu Baosan, the deputy director of the institute took charge of the works. When Mr. Wu Baosan received me, he allotted me in the history of economics group and Mr. Sun Yutang served as my instructor. I just learned a little knowledge of the modern history of China when I was at university so the institute required me to make up missed lessons at Beijing University. I still remember that for the sake of this, Mr. Sun Yutang took me to Beijing University to pay a visit to Mr. Zhou Yiliang and to attend classes for several times. After that, I also went to Beijing University for several times. However, after it was less than one year before Mr. Di Chaobai came to our institute to take charge of the works here. He transferred me to the group of applied economics. At first, I was sent to Gaoyang Country, Hebei to make the investigation of handicraft industry for a few months. After that, I was sent to Boye County, Hebei to make the investigation of animal husbandry industry for a few months. Then, I spent nearly one year in 1956 to take part in the investigation of water losses and soil erosion in the northwestern party of Shanxi Province which was organized by the Chinese Academy of Sciences.

In the part, I took the way from my family to my school, then from my school to the institution. I was in lack of actual practices and works. The participation in the investigations of the handicraft industry, the animal husbandry industry and the soil and water conservation etc. supplied the gap to a certain degree. I had learnt some theoretical knowledge when I was at school, but I did not fully understand how the theories were put forward, how to judge whether the theories were right or not and how to make use of the theories to solve the practical problems. By means of these investigations and surveys, I began to be aware of the relation between the theory and the practices and I began to ponder over this issue. I understood that it is necessary to combine the theory with the practices. In 1955, I was making investigation of soil and water conservation in a village called Wangjiagou in Shanxi Province. I found that none of the theories I had learnt could solve the soil and water conservation problem there. Therefore, I found how arduous it is to combine the theory with the practice. In the researches from then on I always attach importance to the combination of the theory and the practice.

The other realization of mine is that we shall lay emphasis on making investigation and researches and broaden our vision. In the past, I learnt the general knowledge of economics about the handicraft industry and the agriculture etc. from the books, but I did not make investigation in the workshop of handicraft industry as well as in the countryside. In the investigations in Gaoyang and Boye, I got the perceptual knowledge at this aspect. In particular in the investigation of soil and water conservation in the northwestern part of Shanxi Province. I visited a lot of county towns and collected the materials in terms of industry, agriculture, commerce and people’s life in these county towns. In addition, I learnt about the relation between all economic sectors. There was not only the social science circle that took part in the investigation of soil and water conservation then but also the natural science circle, including the scholars and experts in the field of geology, physiognomy, hydrology and biological engineering and so on. This comprehensive investigation also enabled me to know that a lot of economic and social problems need to be solved by the coalition of social science circle as well as the natural science circle. At the beginning of the 1980s when I was doing researches in the field of development strategy of China, I laid emphasis on that we should combine the economic development strategy, the social development strategy and the science and technology development strategy together. It has something to do with the inspiration I obtained from this investigation.

What is more, I also have the experience that I realize the importance of study and research on history. The experience makes me understand what research work is and begin to do research works. I got some practical experience in terms of on-the-spot investigation, collecting materials, analyzing and studying materials as well as writing the investigation and research report. In particular, I have overcome the shortcomings of laying too much emphasis on the abstract theories and neglecting the historical knowledge that I had had in the past to a certain degree. I was aware of the importance of learning history in the research works. At that time, my colleagues in the group of history of economy were all older than me. They had profound foundation and strength with respect to knowledge and researches. I learnt from them and understood the importance of the researches on history. I always keep one sentence said by Mr. Sun Mintang in mind that to collect the useful historical materials is just like find gold from the sands. My subsequent experience makes me understand that this sentence is not only effective for the reaches on the history of economics but also effective for both researches on the economic science and other scientific researches. Around 1960, I studied the issue that the agriculture is the base of national economy. At that time, a great number of articles with respect to this issue had been published in newspapers and periodicals. How could I make my research more profound? Then, I made a historical research on the function of agriculture on all social formations and wrote the article under the title of On the Statuses and Functions of Agriculture in the National Economy of the Pre Capitalist Society and That of the Capitalist Society, which was regarded as novel by the editorial department of the Economic Research. It was published in the No. 5 issue of the Economic Research in 1961. In the sever decade long researches after that, I always pay attention to the historical analysis and research on the economic issues.

Dong: Mr. Zhou, you always lay emphasis on the importance of historical researches. During the process when I was reading your works, I found that there are a lot of summary of the historical experience on the previous economic development in your academic works. As far as I am concerned, this is an crucial issue with respect to the academic researches since the research on such experience will make our academic research have more sense of historical profoundness. However, such kind of academic method is just what us young people will neglect. Would you please talk about the importance of the research on experience in the academic researches by combing with your works?

Zhou: Just now I mentioned that when I was working in the group of the history of economy in the Institute of Economics I understood the importance of doing historical researches. In addition, it also made me realize only if the researches on applied economics be based on the historical experience can it be more profound and can we understand the path we have covered and the existing problems and their reasons so that we will be able to put forward more pertinent policy suggestions. For example, when I was doing researches on the economic development strategy of China I made research on the experience and lessons in the past. At the end of the 1970s and the beginning of the 1980s, our country was in the face of the change of economic development strategy. At that time, people were unfamiliar with the concept of the economic development strategy and were also in lack of the research on the history of economic development strategy of our country since the establishment of new China. Based on such situation, I published the article under the tile of Do Research on the Historical Experience of Economic Development Strategy of Our Country in the People's Daily in 1982. In this article, I made an initial review and summary of the historical evolution as well as the experience and lesson of our country with respect to the economic development strategy and demonstrated the necessity and direction of change of the economic development strategy. In addition, I also put forward the systemic points of view on how to divide the strategic phases, how to confirm the strategic contents of every strategic phase as well as how to evaluate the economic development strategy on every strategic phase. I laid emphasis on that the correct economic development strategy must be suitable for the condition of our country and I pointed out that there had been two kinds of strategic thinking that were totally different from each other with respect to the economic development of our country: one is the protracted war and the other is the opinion of accelerated course. These two kinds of thinking had been put into practices for more than one time and the historical experience proved that the protracted war fitted in with the condition of our country. However, the opinion of accelerated course is not suitable for the condition of our country.

In the several decade long researches, I always pay more attention to the research on the historical experience and lesson. As far as I am concerned, the historical researches are very necessary. They can not only make our researches go more deeper, but also make them, what is more important, much closer to the physical truth and it is useful for us to understand the law of economic development.

Dong: Mr. Zhou, I have read a great number of articles written by you, and I also read some materials related to you. I found that your academic thinking and academic realizations are very open-minded. You always lay emphasis on the importance of emancipate our mind. I wonder how you realize and treat academic research in your academic career and how you are able to emancipate your mind/

Zhou: In my academic career, one important matter I have realized is that we shall try our best to emancipate our mind. Whether I shall emancipate my mind and how shall I emancipate my mind is one or the important questions I have been in the face of during I am doing researches. After the “Great Cultural Revolution”, I felt that I must try my best to emancipate my mind increasingly. Why did I say I need to try my best to emancipate my mind? One reason is that the socialist economics I had learnt when I was at university was the Textbook of Political Economy which was edited by the Institute of Economics of the Academy of Sciences of the Soviet Union and the guiding ideology of this book is the Socialist Economics Problems of the Soviet Union which was written by Stalin. I have read the Socialist Economics Problems of the Soviet Union with care. However, it has been found that many points of view in these two books are not in line with the law of socialist construction. For example, Stalin summed up the socialist public ownership as the two kinds of ownerships including the ownership by the whole people and the collective ownership. As far as he was concerned, the collective ownership shall transit to the ownership by the whole people; the socialist relations of production of the state enterprises are the most mature and most thorough ones; and the means of production is not commodity while the law of value do not have the function of adjust the socialist production, and so on. All of these were the theoretical basis of socialist economic system of the Soviet Union society. However, for a long period of time, I regarded these points of view as truth and did research on Chinese economic issues by taking these points of view as my guiding ideology. The second reason is that the wrong theories and practices of “progressive” in our country also had influence on me. In 1959, I took part in the “Great Leap Forward” and the Movement to Form Rural People's Communes. Though, I did not believe in the tendency toward boasting and exaggeration shown in the “Great Leap Forward”, for example it was said that the one mu land produced ten thousand grains, either, and complained about many methods of work, I just choked with silent fury. I used to write article to propagandize the people's commune. In addition, I used to wrongly criticize the correct points of view of some people in the light of the “progressive” theory in the political struggle and conducted distortion of fact as well as did harm to them. The third reason is that I have also experience the “Great Cultural Revolution”. Though afterwards I extremely hate the false theories spread by the “Gang of Four”, these false theories had the most revolutionary glory at that time. They also exerted an influence on me.

For the reasons given above, there were a lot of conventions which did not accord with truth in my mind. I did reaches on the economic problems of China with these conventions, my research findings were not in line with the truth and it was impossible for them to solve the practical problems. Therefore, with the development and deepening of the reform and opening up, I have had a profound feeling that I shall clear off the wrong conventions in my mind. I often remind myself of emancipate my mind. To emancipate one's mind is to be practical and realistic and it means that one’s thinking and behavior shall be in line with the objective law. With respect to the researchers, it means that their realization of issues and the point of view or plan they put forward shall be in line with the objective reality and the objective laws of economics as well. Under the circumstance that there are wrong convention that is not in line with truth in one’s mind, he must emancipate his mind. Only in this way, can he seek truth from facts. Under this circumstance, to emancipate your mind is the precondition for you to be practical and realistic.

However, only to emancipate your mind does not mean you can be practical and realistic. In order to achieve to be practical and realistic, you shall not only break the different kinds of conventions in my mind that is not in line with truth but also make investigation and do research with care and in a meticulous way, including the collection of materials, distinguishing the materials, the analysis of materials, drawing a conclusion and the inspection of the conclusion, and so on. Every work of them shall be conducted in a good way. It is thus clear that the research is also very important for emancipate our mind. They have an interactive relation with each other. in addition, to emancipate our mind does not mean the idle dream which is not based on the reality or to go off into wild flights of fancy. At the late 1950s, it was also advocated to emancipate our mind. For example, “the greater people's courage is, the more the field will produce” which was put forward in the “Great Leap Forward” and “the people's commune is the requirement of developing production, the creation of the masses and the bridge to the communism” that was put forward in the movement to form rural “people's communes”. These idle dreams which were not in line with the reality had resulted in the Great Chinese Famine for three years and exerted a negative influence on the economic researches. The idle dreams and going off into wild flights of fancy run counter to the objective law. They are not only not practical and realistic but also run in the opposite direction of the truth. Mr. Deng Xiaoping always put forward the emancipation of mind together with being practical and realistic. As far as I am concerned, it has a profound meaning. Therefore, it is very difficult to realize the emancipation of mind and being practical and realistic in doing researches. However, after I realize its importance, I make great efforts to achieve it.

After the “Gang of Four” was wiped out, I took an active part in bringing order out of chaos that the theory circle criticize the “Gang of Four” and it played an important role in enabling me to understand the emancipation of mind and being practical and realistic as well as putting them into practices. I used to wrote a series of articles in allusion to the false theories that the “Gang of Four” made with respect to the issues including the socialist ownership, the commodity relations, the distribution on the basis of labor, the right of the capitalist class, the salary and bonus, the profit, the enterprise management and methods in the field of the political economy, and so on together with Wu Jinglian and Wang Haibo. In addition, we made the systemic criticisms on them. Our purpose was to wipe out these false theories that exerted a pernicious influence in the society. In addition, it was also to put our mind in order and to eliminate the conventions that are not in line with the reality as well as to have a profound understanding of the necessity and difficulties of emancipating our mind and being practical and realistic.

I look back and rethink profoundly my half a century long academic career and I find that one who is engaged in researches is sure to be modest and cautious. In addition, he shall have the spirit of staying at an indifferent post. There are a lot of conventions that are not in line with the reality in the mind of our generation and they are deep rooted as well. Our structure of knowledge is relatively more obsolete and our cognitions of some issues in the past are relatively one-sided. In addition, it is very difficult to break through the one-sidedness. Therefore, it is very important to emancipate our mind. We are supposed to keep up with the times and shall not regard following our bigoted course as holding to the truth in our heart. When doing research, we shall constantly wipe out the obsolete ideas in our mind and make investigation and research with care as well as constantly make self reflection, self criticism and go beyond ourselves.

Dong: Mr. Zhou, I have read the Selected Works of Economic Theories that written by you. In this book, your understanding of the scientific technology and the knowledge based economy make me feel that as a scholar you have strong sense of social responsibility. You are trying your best to broaden our vision by means of scientific research and clearing the misunderstanding in the academic research. In addition, what is more important is that you make scientific research, by means of which you sum up the historical experience and put forward the suggestions useful for the economic development. Would you please talk about your opinion on the science and technology as well as the knowledge based economy by combining with the age background at that time?

Zhou: As far as I am concerned, as a scholar, the most important sense of social responsibility for him is to enable the masses to make a clear distinction between right and wrong. It was the 1970s when I ran into the problems of cognition with respect to the science and technology. In 1975, under the leadership of Mr. Hu Yaobang, the Chinese Academy of Sciences created an Outline of Report with respect to the science and technology, which put forward that “the science and technology is a kind of productivity”, that “the scientific research shall get ahead and shall drive the production to make progressive development” and other opinions. With the purpose of usurping Party leadership and seizing state power, the “Gang of Four” attacked the Outline of Report as poisonous weeds. They published a great number of critical articles, keeping on repeating at great length and denied that the science and technology is productivity. The words and deeds of the “Gang of Four” leaded to ideological confusion and had very band influence. After the “Gang of Four” was wiped out, I had a profound feeing that it was necessary for me to criticize the false theories developed by the “Gang of Four” at this aspect. However, it was also very difficult to make criticism. On one hand, as the “Gang of Four” stated, to put forward that the science and technology is a kind of productivity is to deny the role that the laboring people were playing. On the other hand, the also made the statement that to confirm the function of the science and technology is to deny the class struggle that existed in the socialist society and to deny the necessity of the dictatorship of the proletariat. They stated that it was the “concept of saving the nation by means of science” which was put forward by some people in the old days in China. At that time, all of those “exaggerated epithet used to categorize a person” were very frightening and very delusive. The third reason was that they started a rumor that Marx had never said that the science and technology was a kind of productivity. The fourth one was that the Institute of Economics had not restored its operation at that time and the library was not open. In addition, there was a lack of exchanges with the foreign countries, so it was very difficult to collect the materials with respect to the science and technology trends in the foreign countries. What was a fortune to me, I was temporarily transferred to take the works in the research lab of the national construction committee at that time and I was able to read the materials with respect to the current situation and trends of the science and technology in the world. In addition, I collected the books with respect to the history of science and technology development. By means of reading these literatures and materials, I made research on the role that the advance of science and technology plays in the development of productivity. I read the classic works including the Capital, the History of Surplus Value Theory and the Outline of Political Economy (Draft) written by Marx, and I found that Marx had said that the science and technology is a kind of productivity for many times. With respect to the other false theories put forward by the “Gang of Four”, I also made some researches. On the basis of studying intensively with care and under the principle of emancipating my mind and being practical and realistic, I wrote the article The Science and Technology is Productive Force. In this thesis, I analyzed the relation between the science and technology and the productivity and put forward that “in accordance with the theory of Marxism, the technology is the direct productivity and the science, on the other hand, is the productivity of intellectual configuration. It can be transformed into direct productivity.” In the thesis, I took the statements that Marx had made with respect to that the science and technology is a kind of productivity for many times for example and pointed out, “the nature has never created any kind of machines, any automobile, any train or any plane. All of these were created by human beings. The reason why the human can create these is that they have been aware of and taken advantage of the natural law. In addition, it was also the result of the scientific development. Once the science has been put into use, it can be transformed into the actual productivity.” Supported by evidence and proofs, I also refuted the absurd statements made by the “Gang of Four” such as that “to put forward that the science and technology is a kind of productivity is to deny the role that the laboring people were playing” and that “it is to deny the class struggle and it is a kind of dictatorship of the proletariat” etc.

In the middle of April 1977, I gave this article to Lin Wei, the one who was in charge of the research lab of the national construction committee and asked him to submit it to the editorial department of the Guangming Daily. In the early May, I had received the proof sheet sent from the editorial department. To my surprise, the article was checked, approved and revised by Mr. Hu Yaobang. He wrote more than one thousand words which were thickly dotted on the two paged proof sheet. It suggested that he checked and revised my article in the May Day festival. The editorial department asked me to make an additional revision and send the article back to them. On May 30, 1977, the article was published under the title of Science Technology Productivity in the Guangming Daily. However, some words had been deleted, which made me feel resentful. I wrote a letter to Mr. Hu Yaobang with respect to the issue and pruning of this article. He wrote back to me quickly. In his letter, he said, “This article created by you who studied intensively was published and came out to the large number of readers with the support of staff in the Guangming Daily in the end. I firmly believe that there will be at least several million people, including the leading cadres of our Party, the researches in the field of economics, the researchers in the field of theories and the large number of workers in the field of science and technology, who will read and spread this article. Such a large number of people will have broaden their vision, distinguished right from wrong and obtained strength from this article so that they can fight for our great undertakings in a better way. This shall be an article that necessary for you to feel not let the Party and the people down. Hu Yaobang June 1, 1977.” As far as I was concerned, Mr. Hu Yaobang said these words with the purpose of comforting and encouraging me as I was discontented for the deletion made to my article. In my opinion, this letter is regarded as giving an impetus to me and I consider it is valuable and collect it appropriately all the time.

In 1998, I put forward my opinion on the knowledge based economy in allusion to some misunderstandings that were popular with respect to the knowledge based economy at that time at the “Knowledge Based Economy Seminar” convened in Dalian. For example, some people put forward such kind of statement that the material resources are in short and the knowledge can be generated from being put into use and it does not have the scarcity. This statement was true to certain degree. However, I had a little doubt about it. Since now we are in lack of the knowledge of innovative and high technology. We are not only in the lack of the knowledge of innovative and high technology in the fields of natural science but also in lack of the knowledge of innovative and high technology in the fields of social science. If we have more knowledge of innovative and high technology, we are certain to make the economic reform and achieve the economic development in a better way. Even if it is putted in the scope of the whole world, the knowledge of social science cannot be regarded as having non-scarcity feature. In the face of the economic crisis that took place in the Southeast Asia, the whole world was at a loss what to do to a certain degree. It shows that the knowledge also has the scarcity feature. As it is often said, the economics is a result of resource scarcity. Since the resource is scarce, the economic problems come into being; if there was no such scarcity, there would not be the necessity and thus there would not be the economics. What on earth is the knowledge based economy. We need to make further researches. However, as far as I am concerned, as the direction that a country shall make efforts to and the direction that a region (city), it is different from the direction a sector (industry) and an enterprise shall make efforts to. Besides, the significance of the knowledge based economy with respect to two fields are different as well. The knowledge based economy is the result of the development of innovative and high technology. I am afraid it is impossible for a large country to directly enter into the times of knowledge based economy before it achieves industrialization. With respect to a region and an enterprise, the knowledge based economy can be interpreted as the development of high and new technology industries. In this way, the knowledge based economy will be not always developed after the industrialization. What I mean by saying this, on the other hand, is to express that as a stage for a country’s economic development, the knowledge based economy can only be achieved after the industrialization. With respect to such meaning, the industrial revolution, the industrialization and the industrial economy cannot be surpassed. However, with respect to the development direction of a region (city), a sector (industry) and an enterprise, as long as there are certain necessary conditions, it is not necessary to develop the knowledge based economy after the all tasks of industrialization are completed.

There is no doubt that the conditions are necessary in this point. Not all sectors and regions are able to develop the knowledge based economy. There is no doubt that the knowledge based economy is a hot issue. It is necessary for it to become hotter as it can enable everyone to understand the development tendency of economy in the world, especially to be aware of the importance of knowledge. However, the possible problems that may result from this shall be taken into account as well. For example, to develop the development zones on a large scale in the past is a bad thing. The knowledge based economy is trend of the world economy. However, with respect to the world as a whole, it mainly refers to the most advanced economic countries. With respect to the developing countries, the opportunity is not ripe for them to enter into the age of knowledge based economy. If we go beyond the industrialization and develop the knowledge based economy, we will make the mistakes on the surpassing stage again. The cities and enterprises that have the conditions to develop the knowledge based economy shall proceed from the reality and work in a down-to-earth manner so as to enable the economy to have a sound development.

At that meeting, I also made comments on some other points of views. As far as I am concerned, as a researcher, we have the obligation to clarify the misunderstandings with respect to the conditions in accordance with the knowledge that we have mastered.

Dong: Mr. Zhou, you used to be the first person who put forward that we shall give the most priority to the production of necessaries of people’s life in our country and who criticize the opinion that “regarding giving priority to the development of light industry as the same with the socialist industrialization”. You put forward the opinion that in a certain period to give priority to the development of light industry shall be laid in the first place with respect to the economic construction. This opinion of theory with respect to the industrialization has been widely recognized afterwards. It is also provides the theoretical basis for the industrial restructuring in our country in the 1980s. During the period from the 1980s to the 1990s, you also researched on the issues of the industry development speed and the industrial policies and theories in our country as well. All of these form your theoretical research system of industrialization. I wonder in what context you put forward this kind of industrialization theory that was first initiated by you.

Zhou: In 1979, the national economy was adjusted. At that time, the supply of agricultural products and the light industrial products were both in short. People should use coupons to get the supply of food, meat, oil, sugar, cotton cloth and pasty and so on. Maybe you young people do not fully understand that we should use the coupons to buy anything at that time. The cloth coupons should be used to buy the cloth. The food coupons should be used to buy food. The meat coupons should be used to buy meat. The coupons were needed even if you wanted to buy an electrical bulb. At that time, even if you had the coupons, you might not always have the chance to buy what you wanted. You had to depend on you relations and get in by the back door. The goods and materials were short and lift was very inconvenient for people! I used to read a book written by a writer named Zhang Xianliang. At the very beginning, he described the time when people had to lead a life with the help of the coupons at that time. Many people who have leaded a life through that period of time were deeply impressed by the life when one had to lead a life with the help of the coupons at that time. At that time in the society, it was said that the industrialization of capitalism starts with the light industry while the industrialization of socialism starts with the heavy industry; to give priority to the development of light industry is the method of capitalism while to give priority to the development of heavy industry is the method of socialism. This kind of statement was from Stalin and it has a profound and lasting influence on the academic circle and the economic circle in our country. People regarded the development of the light industry as the equality to the capitalist industrialization and the opposite of socialist industrialization, which results in that they did not attach importance to the development of light industry and the light industry products in the society were in a lack, and thus the people’s life has been greatly influenced. As a matter of fact, it was the result of placing undue emphasis on the development of heavy industry. Thought all people in the country were very unsatisfied, there was no public discussion with respect to this in terms of principle and theory since Stalin had ever said that it was the way of the socialist industrialization to give priority to the development of heavy industry while it was the way of the capitalist industrialization to give priority to the development of light industry. People dare not get rid of this convention.

After doing researches with care, Wu Jinglian and I wrote the Giving Priority to the Development of Light Industry, which was published in the People's Daily dated August 31, 1979. In that article, we analyzed the statements which were popular at that time from the aspects of the history of economy and the economic theories and so on. We pointed out that to regard giving priority to the development of heavy industry as the way of socialism was false with respect to its theory and harmful with respect to the practices. As far as we were concerned, “we can never connect the development of light industry with the capitalism and to set it in the opposite side of the socialism”. In addition, we put forward that a certain period to give priority to the development of light industry shall be laid in the first place with respect to the economic construction. In the other article that I wrote and published in the No. 6 Issue of the Chinese Economic Problems, I also stated that “if we want to give priority to the development of the heavy industry, we shall go through the period of giving priority to the development of the light industry in general. The development of light industry is even more important than the development of heavy industry.” Since the development of light industry was given priority to in the adjustment period, the light industry products in the market were becoming more and more varied and our country gradually cancelled the system of supply of coupons. In 1983, I wrote new articles under the titles of Giving Priority to the Researches on the Theories of Socialist Industrialization, Comparative Study between the Socialist Industrialization and Capitalist Industrialization and Conscientiously Summing up the Historical Experience from the Socialist Industrialization, and so on. I put forward that “Stalin’s socialist industrialization should be tested by the practices and I made a sorting of the traditional theories of industrialization in a wider range.

Dong: When I was reading your works, I had a feeling that the theories of socialist industrialization are the major content of your research. As a matter of fact, you have put forward a lot of points of view in terms of the theories of enterprise operation and management on the basis of the theory of industrialization. Would you please talk about your major points of view?

Zhou: Since they are related to the theory of industrialization, I have also made some explorations and discussions with respect to the issues of industrial enterprises in macro and micro terms. For instance, I used to put forward that:

The political economics shall attach importance to the reaches on the issues of enterprises. In 19787, I wrote an article under the name of The Political Economics Shall Attach Importance to the Reaches on the Issues of Enterprises and I pointed out that whether the enterprises give play to their initiative is closely related to whether the socialist economy can have a rapid development. In order to give full play to the enthusiasm of the enterprises, we are supposed to do reaches on and solve a great number of problems. I also analyzed in the article that the reason why the political economics had ignored the researches on the issues of enterprises and appealed that we must enhance the position of the issues of enterprises in the political economics, strengthen the researches on them, master their law and ensure the smooth development of economic reform so as to promote the more rapid development of national economy. After that, I published the theses under the titles of Attaching Importance to the Researches on the Law of Enterprises’ Behaviors and More about the Industry Rules of Enterprises and so on to discuss this issue.

Insisting on and developing the theory of separation of the two powers (the ownership and the power of operation). In 1988, I put forward in the article under the title of The Enterprise Reform and the Separation of the Two Powers that we should not only insist on the theory of “separation of the two powers” but only enrich and develop the theory of “separation of the two powers”. In addition, I put forward that compared to the traditional theory of “integration of the two powers”, the theory of “separation of the two powers” is a great progress. It used to play an important part in the economic reform of our country and it still does nowadays. In order to lay a more sound theoretical foundation for the state-owned enterprises to have independent management and assume sole responsibility for its profits or losses, we shall enrich and develop the theory at least from the three aspects including the separation of the government’s executive power and state’s ownership, the ultimate ownership maintained by the state and the corporation’s ownership obtained by the enterprises, the separation of the ownership and the power of operation that shall be implemented in the enterprises etc.

How can we give full play to the dominant feature of the state-owned economy? As far as I am concerned, even if it is the capitalist country, the state-owned economy is not something that may or may not be needed in the modern market economy. As for the socialist countries, the development and presence of the state-owned economy is necessary and inevitable to a greater extent. It is a kind of law of the development of the modern market economy. However, in the primary stage of socialism in our country, the state-owned economy can only take the leading position rather than become the principal part. In 1994, I pointed out that in one article that in order to give full play of the leading feature of the state-owned economy we shall reasonable industrial structure in the first place. Now, some industries and enterprises of the state-owned economy shall be strengthened however they have not been strengthened. The state-owned economy can quit from some industries and enterprises however it has not quitted. Some departments shall regard the adjustment of state-owned economy as a strategic issue for vigorously developing the state-owned economy and the researches shall be done to find out which sectors shall be monopolized by the state-owned economy, which sectors shall continued to be operated by the state-owned economy and the non state-owned economy shall be permitted to operate them; which sectors shall not be operated by the state-owned economy and shall be operated by the non state-owned economy.

The other on is the relation between the enterprise reform and the enterprise management. I always lay emphasis on that we shall pay great attention to the enterprise management and economic management in the reform and I have demonstrated the necessity to integrate the reform with the management. As far as I am concerned, to carry out reform is for the purpose of promoting the development of productivity. However, if we do not integrate the reform with the management, it is difficult for the reform to achieve the purpose of developing the productivity. Therefore, in parallel with the reform, it is not only necessary and also possible to integrate the reform with the management. The enterprise management shall include the enterprise operation. However, in the context of the traditional planned economics system, there was no such issue with respect to the enterprise operation. With the reform of enterprise, this issue has been put forward. In 1981, I wrote the article of Attaching Importance to the Researches on Enterprise Operation and I put forward the issues of Chinese enterprises’ operation.

Dong: Mr. Zhou, by means of sorting and studying your works recently, I found that your research field and range are relatively extensive. For example, the industrial theory and the theory of enterprise are your outstanding contributions. In addition, you have unique opinions with respect to the economic theory of agriculture, the economic structure and practices of social development as well as the socialist economic theory and so on. In a word, all of these show the contribution you have made to the system info of socialist economy. Would you please make a conclusion now about what other major opinions of you besides the theory of industrialization and the theory of enterprise?

Zhou: Just as you said, I have a relatively extensive research field but it cannot be said as achievement, let alone contribution. It is jus to meet the need of my works and I just put forward some point of view after I made investigation and research as well as pondered over them. I have not made conclusion in a good way yet, however the following aspects are worth further discussion:

The standard of productivity is the basic standard to measure whether an economic reform is successful or not. I hold the opinion that the standard of productivity is the basic standard. In other word, I hold the opinion that we shall regard the development of productivity as the basic standard to measure whether a reform is successful or not rather than regarding the relations of production as the basic standard to measure whether a reform is successful or not. The basic standard is not the only standard. In addition to the basic standard, we can have other standards as well. However, these standards are not the basic one. If we regard it as the only standard, it means we cannot have other standard. In addition, I also pointed out that since the evolution of the system of ownership and the relations of production are limited by various kinds of subjective and objective factors, such kind of evolution not only has its necessity but also has its selectivity. Whether this evolution is a kind of progress finally depends on whether it promotes the development of productivity. We also discussed the relation between the standard of productivity and the standard of “three favorable” as well as how to insist on the standard of productivity and so on.

The other one is the status of non public sectors of the economy on the primary stage of socialism. As far as I am concerned, no matter whether we treat the issues from the perspective of the development of social history or from the perspective of that the superstructure shall serve the economic foundation, we are supposed to regard the various sectors of the economy that are jointly developing in the context of the public ownership and keeping public ownership as the mainstay of the economy as the economic foundation on the primary stage of socialism. From the former point of view, only if we regard the publicly owned economy and the non-public economy as the economic foundation, can we have an overall and profound understanding of the history and reality of our country on the primary stage of socialism. From the latter point of view, there is still a problem of continuous development of the non-public economy nowadays. In order to enable it to have a sound development, the superstructure is also needed to serve it. In other words, we shall regard it as the economic foundation on the primary stage of socialism. If we do not regard the non-public economy as the economic foundation on the primary stage of socialism, it is certain for us to regard it as an “old foundation” which has been behind the times and follow the same old disastrous and wrong road to “take active measures to fight for” wiping it out.

The system of ownership is also an economic means. As far as I am concerned, with the deepening of the reform of the state-owned enterprises, people will have more and more understanding of that to clarify the property rights of enterprises and to straighten out the relations between ownership and management is a very important issue. To clarify the property rights of enterprises is to acknowledge that the state-owned enterprise has the ownership of the property that it operates and manages. There is no doubt that the country has the ownership of the property of the state-owned enterprise, but the state-owned enterprise shall also have the ownership of the property that it operates and manages. The former can be called the ultimate ownership and the latter can be called the corporation’s ownership. In the modern enterprise system, it can be found everywhere that the ownership is divided into the ultimate ownership (the stock right is also a kind of ultimate ownership) and the corporation’s ownership. In order to clear and definite the property right of the state-owned enterprise, it is necessary to make the question clear whether the system of ownership is economic means or not. I emphasize that seen from the history of the development of the human society the most primary purpose is to development the productivity and improve the life condition of people. The relations of production including the system of ownership have come into play mainly as economic means. There is no doubt that the system of ownership has other functions and effects as well.

This one is the issue of the sustainable development of the Chinese socialist system. I used to write the theses including The Sustainable Socialism and the Unsustainable Socialism, More of the Sustainable Socialism and the Unsustainable Socialism, What Is the Sustainable Socialism and What Is the Unsustainable Socialism and Why the Public Ownership Is Needed for the Socialism and What Public Ownership Is Needed for the Socialism and so on. As far as I am concerned, the socialist system also has the issue of sustainable development and the upheaval of the Soviet Union highlighted the important significance of this problem. There is no doubt that the sustainable development of socialist system shall deal with the problems of population, resources and environment and so on in a good way. However, at the same time, what is even more important is to deal with the problems of the social systems including the economic system, the political system, the legal system, the cultural system, the educational system and the system for science and technology and so on in a good way; it is a huge systems project, including the contents of the reform and the construction at a great number of aspects including the economy, the politics, the law, the culture and education, the science and technology and the society and so on. It is a quite arduous task.

This is the coordinated growth of urban and rural economic and social developments in China. In March 1992, I wrote the article Attaching Importance to the Research on the Industrial Relation between the Urban and Rural Areas and I pointed out that “the industrialization shall not only include the industrialization of urban areas but also include the industrialization of rural areas” and “after the rapid development of town and township industry in our country and the contradictions and frictions appeared between the urban and rural industries, we just put forward the issue of coordinated growth of urban and rural economic and social developments” and that we shall “do researches on the various kinds of contradictions in the industrial development of urban and rural areas”, and “the contradictions between the urban and rural industries will not exist by themselves but they are connected with and related to the other contradictions in the economic relations of urban and rural areas”. After that, I took charge of “research on the issues of economic and social development under the dualistic structure of urban and rural areas which was the key research project of “the Eighth Five-Year Plan” supported by the National Social Science Research Funds. The research group which consisted of more than ten researchers made investigation and research from more than ten aspects with respect to the coordinated growth of urban and rural economic and social developments in China, including the industrial change and coordinated growth of urban and rural areas, the transfer of agricultural labor force, the capital flow and the capital market of urban and rural areas in China, urbanization of rural areas as well as the development of cities and so on and we wrote the book under the title of Research on the Coordinated Growth of Urban and Rural Economic And Social Developments in China. It was a pity that the results of this book have not been propagandized in time so as to make it a common view of more people.

Dong: Mr. Zhou, currently some of us young people are very fickle. They research on whatever is hot and make light of the theoretical research. They are in lack of a clear and definite professional emphasis. At this point, would you like to make some suggestions for the young people by combining with your own academic experience?

Zhou: Let me introduce the period when I started to do researches. In 1956, the Party Central Committee called on advancing to the science. At that time, I worked in the Institute of Economy where a lot of graduates from the department of economics of different universities in the country were selected there. However, many of them did not have clear and definite professional emphasis. The young people in the institute respond to the Party Central Committee that called on advancing to the science and put forward the demand of having a clear and definite professional emphasis. However, the leaders of the institute did not agree with such demand. They put forward that the guiding principle that the young people shall “move all over the Six Ministries”. The “walker moving all over the Six Ministries” was a government post that used to be set in the history of China. The “Six Ministries” refer to the Ministry of Official Personnel Affair, the Ministry of Revenue, the Ministry of Rites, the Ministry of Punishments, the Ministry of Works and the Ministry of War in feudal China. Walker was the officer who had the right to deal with the affairs of the six ministries. The purpose of putting forward this principle was to make the young people completely abide by the arrangement of leaders in the institute and do what the leaders asked them to do. Due to the great difference in opinion, there used to be a huge debate that took place in the institute with respect to the issues of “walker moving all over the Six Ministries”. Both parties involved in the debate both took me for the prime example, since at that time I had been allotted to the newly established group of agricultural economy in the institute. Dated from the researches on the history of economy then to the researches on the agricultural economy, I had been the “walker moving all over the five ministries”. The one side said I had made a rapid progress and the other side said I had a few achievements. The result of this debate was that the requirement of the young researches with respect to “having a clear and definite professional emphasis” had been satisfied.

I had complained that I had not had a clear and definite professional emphasis and had undertaken frequent changes for a long time. However, I studied hard and worked hard at all the tasks that had been allocated to me, fulfilling the tasks by leaving no stone unturned. In the debate on the “walker moving all over the Six Ministries” that took place in the Institute of Economy”, I took the side of many young people and agreed with them on their request. During the following more than ten years, my professional emphasis on the researches on the agricultural economy has never been changed. Now reviewing this history, I feel that it is necessary for the researchers to have a clear and definite professional emphasis. However, at that time when the institute of economy had been established for a short time and there was only a small number of researchers. In order to fulfill the tasks, the more frequent changes of researchers’ works were inevitable. As far as I am concerned, the frequent changes of works made me fail to have the research achievement for a period of time. However, it cannot be said that I gained nothing. In particular, in a long run, the practice of ““walker moving all over the six ministries” (as a matter of fact, I was a “walker moving all over the five ministries”) during that period made me benefit a lot from it. Therefore, you shall have clear and define professional emphasis. However, in addition to having a clear and define professional emphasis, you should also have the spirit of staying at an indifferent post. You are supposed to get down to your research works in a down-to-earth way. As for me, I had not learnt enough knowledge of western economics and the history of economy when I was in university and I did not learn English well either. However, the age you are living in is different from ours. You learn many subjects better and have a sound foundation as well. At present, the development and the changes of the society are rapid. The spread of information and knowledge is rapid. You are supposed to develop a habit of learning rapidly and you should learn to keep the knowledge well in hand and have the ability of solving problems. The future belongs to the young people and you will take the significant posts and shoulder the significant responsibilities in the future. However, after taking the significant posts, you may not have the change to read books. If you do not be willing to stay at an indifferent post now, not study with care or not lay a sound foundation, you will be regretful when you run into a stone wall and it will have been too late.

Everybody is responsible for the fate of his country. Now that we have the opportunity to engage in the scientific researches, we shall be more responsible for the people, for the country and for the society as well as the science. Some people are open-minded, it is a good feature. However, it is not enough to only have a train of thought and we shall depend on time, on the strength and on the study, investigation and researches in a down-to-earth manner.

Dong Li female, is a doctor of economic. In 1995, she got the bachelor's degree of science from Zhengzhou University. In 1998, she got the master’s degree of economics from Nankai University. In 2006, she got the doctor’s degree of economics from Beijing University. From 1998 up to the present, she is working in the institute of industrial economy of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. Her major research fields include the theory and policy of the finance and industry development and the theory of industry organization and so on.

Translated by Xu Qiyuan.