Find Problems, Solve Problems

Zhang Yuhuan (hereinafter referred to as Zhang): teacher He, the caution that the Yangtze River is at risk of becoming the second Yellow River raised by you in 1979 has great social influence and it is also one of main achievements that the ecological economics field appeals for the protection of the ecological environment.

He Naiwei (hereinafter referred to as He): in 1979, I went to Sichuan province to participate in the Forestry Economics Symposium. After the symposium, I went to the forest regions of Ngawa and Liang Mountain to investigate, and I talked with workers and cadres in the forest regions. At that time, the industrial production of forests in national forest areas was cutting wood. Forests were destroyed, and nobody paid attention to the influences of forest destuction towards ecology and environment. Workers and cadres in forest regions feel deeply sad about ecological deterioration after the forests are destroyed. I went to the forest authority in Chongqing to have an interview on my way to Beijing. Comrades in Chongqing city said: you can see the following scenery standing on Chaotianmen wharf before 1957: river water flowing from the Yangtze River is green, while flood water flowing from the Jialing River is yellowish red, and the two waters join together. However, we can’t see this scenery today, and water from the Yangtze River and the Jialing River is yellowish red.

Zhang: these reflections attracted you. And later, what did you do? 

He: I took a boat to Wuhan from Chongqing, and I investigated carefully along the road. River streams and waterfalls flowing from both sides of the Qutang Gorge and Wu Gorge within Sichuan are yellow and red mud, we can see that the water loss and soil erosion in the Three Gorges within Sichuan is very serious. The Wu Gorge is known as the Fairy Gorge to all in the world, but the comely fairy stands among bare hills and mountains, and it seems that she is as naked as when she was born, which is inelegant. Within Hubei province, in the mountain city of Badong, there are dense crops behind the city; in the Xiling Gorge, there are orange forests at the bottom and pines and cypresses on the top, with green river water, and this is the real land of splendor.

Zhang: the title of that report is “the Yangtze River is at risk of changing into the second Yellow River”. Why did you use this title?

He: I was considering this problem on the way from Chongqing to Wuhan. In today’s Yangtze River, the water is yellow rather than green. And finally the title of “the Yangtze River is at risk of beecoming the second Yellow River” was formed.

Zhang: in that report, the title is distinct, and you have used a large amount of data.

He: as for articles, reports, dissertations, they must be distinct at first. In addition, it is not enough to have a distinct viewpoint only, and the problem argument must be scientific. The conditions and grounds of the argument must be clear, detailed, accurate, and convictive.

Zhang: how did you do that? Please talk about it in detail.

He: the aim of going to the forest area was to originally do an ordinary forest investigation. As a result, workers and cadres in the forest area reflected that the forest had been severely destroyed and the ecological environment had become worse. I went to the top of the mountain to see forest and mountain conditions, and I found that it was true. Among Ngawa, Liang Mountain, and Garze, Ngawa was developed earliest, and then it was the Liang Mountain, so I mainly investigated these two places.

In accordance with the census data of forest resources from 1976 to 1977, the forest area in Ngawa at that time was more than 117 hectares, calculating according to the annual growth rate of 1.14 cubic meters per hectare, the annual growth is 1340 thousand cubic meters, and then multiplied by 60% of outturn percentage, and then Ngawa can only produce 800 thousand cubic meters every year. In accordance with scientific felling methods, total annual felling can not exceed the annual growth total. What are the actual conditions? In 1978, Ngawa submitted 1630 thousand cubic meters of wood according to the plan of the country, and the felling and production amount of the local area was 270 thousand cubic meters, and forest industrial enterprises used 50 thousand cubic meters, so 1950 thousand cubic meters of wood were cut in that year, which exceeded, by about one and a half times that of annual growth. Besides this part, at that time, common people in that area consumed about 2000 thousand cubic meters of forest resources. In 1978, they also burned 8100 thousand jins of wood charcoal to deliver to Chengdu, and the consumption of forest resources in these aspects were larger than national felling totals. In addition, at that time, communes and production teams also cut wood in national forest areas to sell. The country, local government, and common people cut wood. However, what did they do about afforestation? However, it has been awarded as an “advanced enterprise” because it completed the wood production task well. Maoergai Forestry Bureau is located in High Mountain, hill, and grassland areas, and it is not easily renewed after forest felling. In addition, the updated technology at that time was not qualified, and grasses can not grow after the forest is destroyed, so it is extremely easy to cause desertification of land and water loss and soil erosion. In such areas, wood is cut largely as usual. From 1972 to 1978, Maoergai Forestry Bureau cut more than 60 thousand mu of forest, while only 600 mus of new trees were planted, only 1% of the felled area.

Zhang: at that time, the environment results of forest destruction were not a concern of others, but you were concerned.

He: at that time, people didn’t take notice of this problem, but workers and cadres in forest regions realized, and they had personal experiences. Specifically speaking, they suffered a great deal. If you ride in a car from Guan County along the Minjiang River against the current, you can also see the miserable situation that there are bare hills and mountains for hundreds of kilometers. In accordance with the observation in the Dujiangyan Irrigation System, in the 1950s, water of the Minjiang River was clear, with a high flow rate; in the 1970s, the quantity of flow water decreased to 2.25 billion cubic meters, and the sand content increased to 3 million tons, and at the same time the water level decreased.

Old workers at the Hongwei Forestry Bureau of Ngawa said: “in the 1950s, with many forests, the climate here was very good; in the 1970s, with more felling and little new planting, forests were destroyed, and the amount of rainfall decreased obviously.”

The forest-destruction conditions on Liang Mountain follows in Ngawa’s steps, but the results of the destruction are more severe than that of Ngawa. From the 1950s to the 1970s, Yuexi County has changed from a wood production county to a wood import county. Through an aerial survey, in 1961, there were about 50 thousand mus of forest in Wa Yan and Da Yangou of Yuexi County, and there were about 30 thousand mus in East Mountain; while in the 1970s, there were only 20 thousand mus of forest in Wa Yan and Da Yangou of Yuexi County, and there existed less than one third in East Mountain. On July, 4^th, 1978, flash floods in four mountain valleys in Wa Yan and Da Yangou broke out, destroying more than 300 meters of river banks by rushing water, submerging more than two thousand mu of land, and damaging more than one thousand mu of crops. On September 4^th, 1978, the rainstorm in five big ditches lasted for two hours, and mountain torrents broke out in Mahuang Ditch and Jiashi Ditch, destroying more than one thousand mu of basic farmland by rushing water, breaking through 54 civilian buildings, storages, and schools, and losing 365 thousand kilograms of grains; and twelve people of the Ruilian Group died.

The water loss and soil erosion in Yuexi County is very serious, and Niuri River washes away sediment as much as 2150 thousand tons every year, which amounts to five-inches of topsoil of one tenth of the farmland across the whole county; in all, the amount sediment washed away from Niuri River over the past twenty years has reached 46.93 million tons.

Zhang: what was your aim in calculating this amount and writing this report?

He: at that time, some leaders in charge of forestry in Sichuan province thought that forests in Ngawa, Liang Mountain, and Garze were mature forests and over mature forests, whose barrier property has been reduced greatly. As for this kind of forest, the felling amount can not be confirmed according to growth amount. They advocated active felling and utilization, and they said that comrades who advocated limited felling were conservative in thought.

Zhang: you didn’t agree with this viewpoint, so you thought about how to put forward different opinions. And finally, this investigation report was formed. And it had great influence after publication.

He: at that time, forests in Ngawa, Liang Mountain, and Garze were over-cut largely, and the effect on the ecological environment worsened.

My investigation report was published in Outline Paper of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences first. After he saw this report, Yu Guangyuan, the responsible person at the State Science and Technology Commission at that time, asked the China Forest Society to organize experts and scholars to discuss this report. Through discussion, forestry experts and scholars agreed with my analysis and conclusions, and they emphasized that if forests upstream were continuously destroyed, the Yangtze River was at risk of changing into the second Yellow River. After the discussion results were submitted to Comrade Yu Guangyuan, my report was published in the Guangming Daily on July 31^st, 1979, the title was changed from “the Yangtze River is at risk of changing into the second Yellow River” to “Will the Yangtze River become the second Yellow River?” And then, the China Forest Society organized an expert team to go to upstream forest areas of the Yangtze River to investigate, and their investigation report also confirmed my opinions. Several forestry experts published articles in the People’s Daily and put forward: “potential risks of the Yangtze River are more serious than the Yellow River”.

Zhang: it is known to me that this investigation report aroused a great discussion. In addition, as for the issue that “the Yangtze River is at risk changing into the second Yellow River”, you argued with the Changjiang Water Resources Committee (original the Planning Office of Yangtze River Basin) several times.

He: originally, I only thought of the Ministry of Forestry, namely only paying attention to wood production but not concerning environmental degradation, and I never thought that the Changjiang Water Resources Committee would emphasize: the sediment discharge of the Yangtze River hasn’t increased, and the sediment discharge of main streams of the Yangtze River hasn’t increased or decreased obviously, so the Yangtze River will not change into the second Yellow River.

For this reason, I published nine articles in response in 1980, 1981, 1990, and 1999. In 1999, in the article Never Let the Yangtze River Change into the Second Yellow River, I concluded my opinions basically. Firstly, I said that the saying, the Yangtze River is at risk of changing into the second Yellow River, is a kind of analogy, that is to say, if forests in the Yangtze river basin are destroyed, water loss and soil erosion will be enlarged, so the environmental degradation in the Yellow River valley will appear in the Yangtze river basin; secondly, the Yangtze river basin and the Yellow River valley are different in climate, geography, geology, and soil, but the harm of forest deterioration and water loss and soil erosion are very serious; thirdly, the growth and decline of forest cover and the development and variation of water loss and soil erosion in the Yangtze river basin are related to the sediment change of the Yangtze River, the special feature of the Yangtze River is that the harm of bed-load gravels are more serious and far, so we must strengthen soil and water conservation.

After the investigation report Discussion on the Risk of the Yangtze River to Change into the Second Yellow River was published, I gained the National Forestry Good News Award, and the following achievements were formed.

Firstly, push forward the significance of ecological environment problems and the development of ecology. Academician Li Wenhua of the Chinese Academy of Engineering said: “since the article Will the Yangtze River become the second Yellow River was published in Guangming Daily in 1979, there have been more and more reports and articles on the destruction of ethe cological environment in Chinese newspapers and magazines. Finally, a national large discussion regarding “function of the forest” as the center was formed from 1981 to 1982. The concern of “ecological balance” and “ecological benefit” is not limited to the academic field, and it began to enter the decision level and the masses. This is the first popularization of ecological sense in China since the beginning of history, which also marks the ecological awakening of the Chinese nation.”

Secondly, the mentioning of and the discussion of “the Yangtze River is risk of changing into the second Yellow River” were submitted to the Party Central Committee through its publication in the Outline Paper of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, which was also published in Information Service twice. In addition, it was of concern to the Party Central Committee, so two projects, namely “shelterbelt networks construction in the middle and upstream of the Yangtze River” and “soil and water conservation project construction in the upstream of the Yangtze River” was set up and implemented. In chapter 1 of Overall Plan of Shelterbelt Networks Construction in the Middle and Upstream of the Yangtze River, the author showed clearly that a certain scholar had put forward the caution that “the Yangtze River is risk of changing into the second Yellow River”. The serious fact about ecological environment deterioration in the middle and upstream of the Yangtze River has aroused high attention of the Chinese Communist Party and the government and a wide concern of the public.

Thirdly, promote the decisions and implementation of the natural protection forest project and the project of returning grain plots to forestry in the middle and upstream of the Yangtze River, and also promote the development of national compulsory tree-planting activities.

Zhang: through this discussion, what gains did you have in academics?

He: research method. At the initial stage of ecological economy research, early warning research is very important. Early warning research is stating the harm of environmental degradation towards social economy through steps, such as warning, signs, cause, and countermeasures and so on, to raise concerns of society and government with a clear warning, and to achieve the aim of implementing nature protection, carrying out the construction of an ecological environment, and promoting the coordinated and sustainable development of ecology and economy. Discussion on the Risk of the Yangtze River to Change into the Second Yellow River is a successful case of early warning research.

The sign in this case is that the current water of the Yangtze River is as yellow as that of the Yellow River, deterioration of natural and ecological environment, and frequent floods and drought (in recent years, the water pollution in the Yangtze River is serious, someone put forward “the Yangtze River is at risk of changing into the second Yellow River” again); the cause is destroying forests, cutting natural forests, serious water loss and soil erosion, and decreased ability for containing water on the earth's surface; countermeasures are protecting and building forests and implementing soil and water conservation. Early warning research has become one of my main methods.

Zhang: besides this article, what articles were finished in early warning research?

He: a few. For example, Crisis and Perceptiveness of Forest Sea in Lesser Khingan Mountains written in 1980 and Xishuangbanna (Forest) Urgently Awaits to Be Saved written in 1980, I revealed the situation that Chinese natural forests are in resource crisis and ecological deterioration for the first time; The Yellow River Flows Forever written in 1997 and Several Important Issues on Ecological Environment Construction in Northwest Regions written in 2003 were early warning research, pointing out problems and putting forward measurements.

The article The Yellow River Flows Forever was written wit the aim of changing the Yellow River into a continental river as advocated by Lin Yishan and Liu Huiyong, authorities in the water conservancy field; the article Several Important Issues on Ecological Environment Construction in Northwest Regions was the discussion towards several specific problems in Report of Strategic Research Project Achievements on Water Resource Allocation, Ecological Environment Construction, and Sustainable Development in Northwest Regions written by the Northwest Water Resource Project Team of the Chinese Academy of Engineering led by Qian Zhengying. Lin Yishan, Qian Zhengying, academicians of the Chinese Academy of Engineering enjoy high prestige and command universal respect, and their viewpoints greatly influence the government’s decisions. In case of decision mistakes, they will cause losses to the country and society, even serious losses. Comrades around them may have different opinions, but they dare not put them forward. I put forward different opinions, and at least decision makers can know about different opinions. Listen to both sides and you will be enlightened. This is the conscience and social responsibility of intellectuals.

In the construction development of China, it is extremely difficult to solve some old ecological environment issues. And new ecological environment issues may appear. For example, we have confirmed that the road of “destroying first and managing later” is wrong, but why do we do it like this? Why do we still destroy them? This needs researching. In the 2007 Government Work Report, Premier Wen raised: “we won’t realize the aim of decreasing about 4% of energy consumption per unit of GDP and decreasing about 2% of total emissions of major pollutants confirmed at the beginning of this year”. What reasons? It seems that we still walk the road of “destroying first and managing later”. The deep causes here are worthy of analysis, including causes in system, politics, and technology. This case shows that early warning research is worthy, and the key point is aiming at significant problems influencing the whole economic situation.

Zhang: please talk about your life road, research experiences, your principles, personal integrity, and research style, so as to provide some references for people of later generations.

He: I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth. My grandfather was a Jinshi in the Qing dynasty. In addition, my great grandfather was a general in Jilin province and Heilongjiang province, who was very impressive in the Qing dynasty. My father was a county magistrate at the end of the Qing dynasty and in the Republic of China. My father served as secretary general of the Middle East Railway Administration in Harbin before the Japanese occupied the Northeast of China. After the Japanese occupied the Northeast of China, he resigned and returned to his native place, Jilin province. The Japanese always looked for him, but he certainly didn’t work for the Japanese. I have accepted the education of nationalism and patriotism since I was a child.

I learned at an old-style private school at the very beginning, and then I joined a class at primary school in the middle of the course. After the Japanese occupied the Northeast three provinces of China, the middle school was called “domestic high school”, and the headmaster and main teachers at the schools were Japanese, so I was disgusted with the Japanese and I didn’t want to learn Japanese. And at that time, I thought that people who like to learn Japanese would be “traitors to China” in the future.

And at that time, one of my sisters was studying in Beijing, and I looked forward to the cultural environment in Beijing. After the anti-Japanese war, I was bent on going to Beijing to study. When I finished my studies in senior grade 2, I went to Beijing to attend school by myself.

When Beijing was liberated, my financial resources were stopped, because the postal route was not smooth. And at that time, the newly established North China University was enrolling new students, and it was a free supply system. You didn’t need to pay tuition fees, and the university gave you living expenses. Therefore, I registered for the examination, and I passed the examination smoothly. And then I was admitted to the Plant Pest Department of the Agricultural College of North China University.

The first half year of my freshmen year was political training, and in the second half of the same year, the Agricultural College of North China University, Agricultural College of Peking University, and the Agricultural College of Tsinghua University emerged, and the China Agricultural University was founded. And then I became a student at the China Agricultural University，studying at the Agricultural Chemistry Department. In the Agricultural Chemistry Department, teacher resources were rich, and professors were internationaly famous scholars, so a lot of people chose this department; while students in the Agronomy Department, Animal and Veterinary Department, and Forest Department were few. Therefore, in the sophomore year, the university appealed to students to change majors. At that time, Joseph Stalin was implementing the plan of nature remodeling and building protection forests in the Soviet Union. With the influence of Joseph Stalin’s plan of nature remodeling, in order to respond to the university’s proposal, I changed my major to the Forest Department. In the third year, the country assigned a task: the university transferred some students to carry out one-year rubber planting investigation in tropical regions and subtropical regions. During the investigation, I served as group leader, and I worked hard and seriously, so I was awarded as a model worker. After returning to university, I applied to join the Chinese Communist Party. In the years after Beijing was liberated, I found that the Chinese Communist Party was indeed the Party for the state and the people, so I decided to follow the Chinese Communist Party. My application was approved, and then I became the first new Party Member in my class. In addition, I came 2^nd in the overall appraisal of my learning achievements over the four years in my class.

In the fourth year, the Forest Department departed from the China Agricultural University, and Beijing Forestry University was founded. Therefore, I graduated from Beijing Forestry University. After graduation, I was sent to the Agriculture, Forest, Water Conservancy, and Weather Bureau of the State Development Planning Commission to engage in the forestry program. The Director General of the Agriculture, Forest, Water Conservancy, and Weather Bureau was Comrade Wang Gengjin, who became Deputy Director of the Agricultural Economic Institute. During my work in the State Development Planning Commission, I worked on the forestry program and relevant work in the unit in the daytime, and I thought and wrote at home at night, and I published some articles in newspapers and periodicals. In addition, I have been elected as an advanced worker of the State Development Planning Commission. In 1977, after the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences was established, Comrade Wang Gengjin, Deputy Director of Agricultural Economic Institute, invited me to work in the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, and then I went to the Agricultural Economic Institute under invitation, serving as the Director of the Forest Economics Room, so I began my scientific research work.

I came from the reality of the planned economy, so I proposed to seize the realities, researching countermeasures in accordance with existing problems in reality, finding problems, and solving problems. I think that it is very important to find problems, because you can find methods to solve problems only through finding problems. At present, some Administrative Departments report only what is good while concealing what is unpleasant, so it is extremely important to find problems. I propose paying attention to reality, putting forward problems, and solving problems, so that we can facilitate the coordinated and sustainable development of the social economy and natural protection. My research almost walks this way.

You must deal with the relationship with others. In this issue, my principle of consistency is treating others equally. If they need, I will help them if it is within my grasp. I pursue integrity, heartiness, fairness, justice, and showing good intention towards others. I will struggle for the interests for qualified comrades, but I have never sought benefits for myself.

I work diligently and conscientiously, and I willingly bear the burden of hard work. I am always on a business trip, went to the place where conditions are hard; sometimes, I have to stand on the train, because I can not buy a seat ticket. Some work is arranged by the organization or leaders contingently, and it is very urgent, so I have to work overtime. I try my best to complete the  task with all my heart and I don’t bother about fame and interests.

The Ministry of Forestry has invited me to be the leader of the expert team of forest protection investigation several times; I write reports in accordance with the results investigated. I have never done things becasue the Ministry of Forestry wanted me to. My objective is to write investigation reports as good as I can.

As for dissertation, I strive for new viewpoints and new opinions. In my research, I have always considered whether I shall publish monographs. And the result is that ecological economics is not very mature, which is not appropriate for writing monographs, so I write dissertations.

In my research, another feature is that I do not fear the authorities; I even dare challenge the authorities. Before I wrote The Yellow River Flows Forever, a viewpoint that the Yellow River will become a continental river was very popular in society, and even Comrade Lin Yishan put forward that we shall let the Yellow River change into a continental river. I thought the Yellow River is the cradle of Chinese civilization, if the Yellow River is finished, Chinese civilization will decline; in addition, objectively, the Yellow River can not become a continental river, because it may be cut off during the low water period, but in the high flow period, water from the Yellow River will flow into the ocean. Therefore, the Yellow River may become seasonal river, but it will never become a continental river, and it can not be allowed to be a continental river. For this reason, I wrote an article called The Yellow River Flows Forever.

Zhang: what are your basic viewpoints and hopes of your research field?

He: my research field is ecological environment economy. I think that the direction of this field fits the Scientific Outlook on Development. On the problem of implementing Scientific Outlook on Development, this field can play a critical role. At present, this discipline is newly started, but there aren’t enough theories and methods. Comrade Li Zhou wants to research the study of ecological economy, and I support him. It is listed as a key discipline by the Institute, and it shows that this discipline is valued. Theories and methods of the study of ecological economy have not been solved, and we can not solve the sustainable problems in socialist China indiscriminately imitating the theories and methods of western economics. The traditional political economy can not solve the harmoniousness of man and nature of Scientific Outlook on Development. As for the study of ecological economy, we should make innovations in theories and perfect methods, so as to implement the Scientific Outlook on Development. 

Therefore, how to implement the Scientific Outlook on Development is also a leading edge problem in the field of ecological economy. In the No.1 document of the Party Central Committee this year, ecological construction and ecological agriculture are mentioned. How to do it? We need to make innovations on the basis of methods and technologies of ecological agriculture. In the past several thousand years, China has been a traditional organic agriculture and small-scale peasant economy, and it has been self-sufficient through natural circulation. However, labor productivity is low, and the degree of commercialization is low, so traditional agriculture should be transformed. What to transform? We can not transform good things, and the essence of organic agriculture should be developed. We should update traditional organic agriculture and manage its industrialization on a large scale, using modern methods to manage agriculture. With this method, we not only keep features of organic agriculture but also realize modernization.

As for young scholars, I have three suggestions. Firstly, in order to make scientific science research, you should firmly walk the way of socialism. You can implement a private economy and shareholding economy, but you should also develop the publicly owned economy and social welfare cause. If you don’t admit the socialist road, you are westernization totally. The American road doesn’t work in China, because we don’t have the initial conditions of American modernization. We can not walk the old way of consuming nonrenewable resources. Secondly, you should be determined, with ambition and great targets. Thirdly, you should keep moving towards your aim and do your research in a down-to-earth manner. I believe that today’s young people will be stronger than me, because your conditions are better than mine.

Finally, I will offer up lines of a play to young scientific research workers:

In so short a life,

Don’t spend your time in vein.

Be determined,

Value virtue;

Undervalue fame and wealth,

Make more contributions;

Study hard,

Practice diligently.

In the flourishing age,

There are many chances.

Only if you struggle,

You will gain abundant achievements.

Zhang Yuhuan, female, graduated from the Water Conservancy Department of Shenyang Agricultural College. And she was sent to the Rural Development Institute of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. In 1984, she entered the Ecological and Environmental Economy Research Room and worked under the guidance of Mr. He Naiwei. At present, she is an associate researcher, and she is also a PhD student of the Rural Development Department of Graduate School of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.

Translated by Feng Weijiang.