Zhu Shaowen, male, Han nationality, born in January, 1915, is a native of Zhenjiang, Jiangsu Province and a member of the China National Democratic Construction Association. In 1941, he graduated from the department of economics at the Tokyo Imperial University in Tokyo and graduated in 1945 as a postgraduate student. He is a researcher and PhD student advisor at the Institute of Economics of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, Honorary president of the China Foreign Economics Research Association, Consultant to the Research Association of China on the Theory of The Capital, the National Society of the Japanese Economy and Chinese Association for Japanese Studies. His academic expertise is foreign economics, the Japanese economy and the study of The Capital. Since 1991, he has started to enjoyed a special allowance awarded by the State Council.

Read Classical Works Carefully and Seek Principles to Save the Nation and People

Yang Chunxue (hereafter referred to as Yang): Nice to meet you, Mr Zhu! I think many young economics students are very curious about your studying experiences, thinking, expectations, etc. Holding these in mind, could you talk about your studies in Japan first?

        Zhu Shaowen (hereafter referred to as Zhu): I haven’t fully recovered from a serious illness, so I can only talk about it briefly. I graduated from Shanghai Senior Middle School in July, 1934. At that time, I didn’t want to study in a university at home. Although I was still young, I was deeply hurt by the national humiliation of nearly 100 years. My junior high school teachers have always taught us to fight for the rejuvenation of and for a thriving nation. A teacher who had come back from Japan told us: “A war will break out between China and Japan sooner or later, so you have to make a long-term plan. You have to taste something bitter in order to remember the insulation and fight back and then go to Japan to study.” His words impelled me to go to Japan. Meanwhile, we had to learn 2 foreign languages in junior middle school, including Japanese which was taught by a Japanese teacher. In addition, it cost me little to study in Japan at that time. It would cost 40 Yuan to study in China whereas it only cost me 36 Yuan in Japan. At that time, the Yen was equal to the Yuan.

    At that time, it was very convenient to go aboard because I didn’t have to go through any procedures or have a visa and passport and I should register at the Shanghai Consulate. I brought hundreds of silver dollars given by my father and my graduation certificate from senior high school and took the ‘Nagasaki Ship’ from Shanghai to Japan on September 14^th. It took me 3 days to reach Japan.

    Yang: What impressed you most when you arrived in Japan?

    Zhu: When I first arrived in Japan, I didn’t feel anything amazing. I went ashore in Nagasaki. Shanghai was a colony at that time and our middle school was situated in the foreign settlement, so I was used to see buildings, trolley buses, etc. In Nagasaki, most of the houses were wooden houses of 2 floors and kimonos were very ordinary, but the dock was very peaceful with the continuous sounds of wooden sandals. The policemen in Japan impressed me most. I went to Tokyo by train at night when I went ashore and some policemen cross-examined and followed us on the train. 

    Yang: Why did you go to Tokyo Imperial University?

    Zhu: I was thinking that the educational system in Japan was the same as China’s before I went to Japan and I could go to university directly after senior high school. But I found it was not the case when I got there. If I wanted to go to university, I had to go to ‘higher-education schools’ to study some basic knowledge for 3 years. So, I lived in Jimbocho and then studied at the East Asia Higher Education Preparation School to learn Japanese. I also went to the ‘Math Studio’ in Waterway Bridge to learn math.

    In the spring of 1935, I enrolled at the First Higher Education School of Tokyo and was one of the last students. As long as I entered the campus, I saw a monument engraving the ‘Grave of Zhu Shunshui’ which made me feel so close to home. At that time, students studying in Shanghai always wanted to go to the west and worshiped foreign countries and they were willing to work in banks, customs and post offices after graduation. I went to Japan to study and disregarded good jobs to save the nation and people.

    Fortunately, I could enter the First Higher Education School of Tokyo and then received a student subsidy from the boxer indemnity fund, so I could live easily and study hard. I didn’t care about English, but my Japanese was also poor. I should not only learn Japanese but also German, so I read the German dictionary in the libraryevery day to get ready for the teacher’s call.

    Actually, my studies in the First Higher Education School of Tokyo consolidated my basic knowledge for entering university. The students were divided according to liberal arts and science and I chose liberal arts. Teaching here focused on the world, including philosophy (Hegel, Kant, etc.), literature (Goethe, Shiller, Shakespeare, etc.) as well as Western History, Cultural History, Japanese History, etc.

    At that time, the graduates of the First Higher Education School of Tokyo and Chinese overseas students could go to Kyoto University directly, but if they wanted to go to Tokyo University, they had to compete with the Japanese students and take exams. I was eager to go to the Economy Department of Tokyo University. I failed the exams the first year, but I was determined to register for another examination at Tokyo University. When I was at the First Higher Education School of Tokyo, I got acquainted with a professor from the Economics Department of Tokyo University, Yamada who came to our school to teach economics. He asked me to enter Tokyo University voluntarily. He said that I was not good at the translation from English to Japanese and introduced me to a teaching assistant from the Economics Department of Tokyo University, Kimura who helped me with this lesson. I went to Kimura’s house every week to learn English and then translate that into Japanese, including English philosophical works of Locke, Hobbes, etc. I was good at English after his teaching. He hadn’t worked in Tokyo University yet at that time because he was engaged in a lawsuit with Japanese Fascist Ministry of Culture for his teacher - Professor Kawai wholeheartedly and he resigned afterwards. I entered into the Economics Department of Tokyo University in March, 1939.

    Yang: Why did you choose economics at that time?

    Zhu: I had already been affected when I was in China and I had already learnt some economics knowledge when I was in junior high school. In addition, I was hoping that China could be as prosperous and strong as Japan. Therefore, I wanted to go to Tokyo University to study how China could become prosperous.

    Yang: What was the Economics Department of Tokyo University like when you were there?

    Zhu: Scholars in Tokyo University were very prestigious in Japan. It was scientifically free, so the government couldn’t interfere. At that time, Fascism in Japan was very rampant. Before I went there, famous scholars who believed in Marxism were dismissed by the Ministry of the Military. Professor Kawai who was not a Marxist was also dismissed because he wrote ‘Criticism of Fascism’. As a liberalist, he played a leading part in bringing in British economics, philosophy and social sciences.

    Fortunately, Professor Okochi and Otsuka also worked in the Economics Department, listening to those classes was like a light in the dark. Most of the professors in this department had studied in Germany, so they mainly taught British and German Classical Economics. In particular, the theories of the German historical school were quite official. They pursued patriotism and insisted on developing the economy at home, namely, developing the national economy. 

    Yang: I can say you consolidated your knowledge on the German historical school at that time so that you have made great achievements. I went to college in 1979. When I studied in Yun Nan University as a graduate, I was aware of your achievements when Professor Zhao Chongling was teaching ‘The History of Economic Thoughts of Western Countries’. Afterwards, the name of my thesis paper was ‘Economic Thoughts of Liszt’ when I studied under Mr Zhao as a postgraduate. He said to me: “If you want to study Liszt, you should not only read a great number of foreign literatures but also find and read the papers of Professor Zhu Shaowen. His works are the best achievements on this area in China. He is good at German and no one in our generation is equal to him in German.” Later, I found your paper - ‘Development Theories of National Productive Force of Liszt’ which encouraged me a lot. To interview you, I also looked up the terms on the German historical school that you wrote in ‘Dictionary of Political Economy’.

    Zhu: It was my teacher, Doctor Okochi that inspired me to study Liszt. I entered the Economics Department in 1939 and listened to his special lectures – ‘Liszt Economy’ when I was in Grade 1. When I was in Grade 2, I was authorized to join the ‘Okochi Research Group’. I graduated in December, 1941 and went to the Postgraduate Institute directly. Professor Okochi said to me: “You should stay to do research on the historical schools of German economic thoughts because his theories are of referential significance for developing countries.” I had studied under him for about 6 years, and he played a decisive part in my learning and life. As a Chinese who was facing a broken motherland, what I could do was to study hard and think about ways to rescue China.

    I finished my doctorial paper, ‘Development Theories of National Productive Force of Liszt’ of more than 20,000 words in 1943, I wrote a paper on a part of it ‘The Theories of Productive Force of Liszt and Modernization of China’ published in Tokyo’s ‘Yangtze Journal’.

    I hadn’t published all parts of my book because I was arrested by the Tokyo Military Police for propagandizing the anti-Japanese patriotic movement. They also took away my books in 2 trucks. I was tortured and my right ear was beaten so badly that I became deaf in prison. My teacher protested at the Military Police Station several times. Although they ignored his protests, they didn’t dare to kill me due to the protests at Tokyo University. My teacher’s wife also took risks to deliver eggs to my wife and children, which was also vivid.

    I was transferred to Chaoya Prison in late October and was released at the end of the year, but I couldn’t walk any longer. A friendly group arranged for me to recuperate. It was in February, 1945 that I came back to Tokyo University. The American army was bombing Japan and was going to land at that time. The students were evacuated and my teacher asked me to run away. Hence, I got on a cargo ship with my wife and children secretly and took a train to the Northeast. Then, my overseas study came to an end. 

    When I came back, I taught Economic Thoughts. At the end of 1945, I held the post of economic thoughts professor in the Business Department of Hujiang University and Economics Department of Fudan University. In 1950, the president of the People’s Bank of China, Nan Hanchen, transferred me to the Head Office. Afterwards, I was marked as ‘Right Wing’ for more than 20 years, but I didn’t forget this subject. I translated ‘Outline of National Economy of Historical Method’ by Roscher during this period. In 1979, I was transferred to the Economics Center at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences to deal with economic thoughts after the re-examinations.

    Liszt, a representative of the German historical school, criticized the British classical economist - Adam Smith because the contemporary problems faced by his country or national conditions were different from those of Britain. He proposed a ‘national economy’ in his ‘The National System of Political Economy’ based on the national conditions and emphasized the productive force of developing country and creating wealth, but he still focused on classical economics. ‘The Wealth of Nation’ by Smith and Liszt’s work represent the basic economic theories of different times or countries transitioning from feudalism to socialism and they are not only powerful weapons to fight against feudalism and emancipate productive forces but also economic theories for backward countries to catch up with developed countries.   

    Yang: Your studies of Liszt have developed your own school in China, especially “Properties and Morality of the Economist Man in ‘The Wealth of Nation’” published in ‘Economics’ in 1987 which was of great influence and has been adopted by researchers till now. At that time, some scholars in China also referred to ‘economist man’ in History of Economic Thoughts (teaching material) and some papers studying Liszt, but they regarded ‘economist man’ as the embodiment of capitalism or even venal ‘privatism’. This phrase carried a negative meaning under the language environment at that time. However, your paper discussed this phrase from a completely different perspective and meaning and showed us a brand-new inspiration and interpretation. It started from ‘questions of Liszt’ to discuss the relationship between ‘economist man’ and its prototype (namely, civilians of middle or lower class) in ‘The Wealth of Nation’ and then analyzed the ethics of the economist man for seeking profits. So, could you talk about your intentions in writing this paper?

    Zhu: At that time, economic reform relied on developing a market economy and admitted the legitimacy of pursuing private interests. However, we could witness that some have utilized the imperfections of the economic system to seek private interest by damaging the public by hook or by crook in reality. Certainly, scholars at that time discussed whether there were contradictions between commodity economy and morality, so I studied ‘questions of Adam Smith’ to explain their doubts. His questions were basic between market economy and morality as well as economy and ethnics.

    It is not scientific for modern economists to simply interpret Smith’s ‘The Wealth of Nation’ from the perspective of equilibrium theory. His book is not only a classic of economics teaching people how to become rich but also an encyclopedia of social sciences instructing people how to dispense with feudalism and move forwards to a modern society of liberated personality.

    Scholars of the historical school believe that ‘The Wealth of Nation’ by Smith centers on ‘privatism’ whereas ‘The Theory of Moral Sentiments’ is based on altruism, so these 2 books are logically contradictive.

    ‘Economist man’ in ‘The Wealth of Nation’ was the embodiment of righteous and moral civilians in 18^th century Britain rather than the abstracted hypothesis. ‘Personal interest’ shows that they wanted to pursue wealth and improve their living standards and it was the driving force to develop the social economy. ‘Justice and morality’ represents restraining themselves while pursuing personal interests. Personal interests were different from the altruism of the nobles, authorized businessmen, opportunists, etc. in feudal society. ‘Civilians in middle and lower class’ didn’t have privileges, so they had to carry out productive activities by way of thriftiness and credit and then created useful materials to pursue personal interest. They strictly followed moral requirements while pursuing personal interests. 

    Considering that society is a community, ‘justice and morality’ is invisible and is the base of social & economical order. For years, I have emphasized that the ‘liberal economy’ and ‘natural & liberal system’ proposed by Smith referred to the liberation of handicraft industrial workers, peasants, craftsmen, etc. from feudal society rather than unchecked freedom. They were equipped with the moral characters of ‘economical man’ in modern times, like observing the laws, caring about others, righteous, careful and ethnical, which represented freedom for civilians. So, each nation shall guarantee their rights according to the Constitution or other regulations. How do they obtain freedom without rights?

    Yang: Teacher, could you talk about your studies of Smith? Your work, ‘Adam Smith and Modern China’ examined the dissemination of Liszt’s theories in China deliberately, which was of unique academic value. You wrote it so deliberately that it must have taken a lot of energy.

    Zhu: I wrote this passage through the chance of attending an international academic meeting to commemorate the 200^th annivasary of Adam Smith’s death in Nagoya. I thought a lot in the process of writing.

    Yan Fu translated ‘The Wealth of Nation’so our country could flourish, bring in advanced social & scientific knowledge and arouse the attention of scholars. The translated version is different because Smith’s work is very simple and deals with civilians. Although his translation of ‘The Wealth of Nation’ could not be equal to the translated version of ‘Evolution and Ethnics and Other Essays’ in affecting intellectuals, but his achievement lives for ever.

    Guo Di and Wang Yanan translated ‘The Wealth of Nation’ again in 1931 which has been a classic till now, but they only intended to disseminate Marxism political economics. Different from Yan Fu, they didn’t regard ‘The Wealth of Nation’ as the historical experiences of a country moving forward to modernism.

    After the establishment of the new China in 1949, the Chinese economy became energetic, but the government regarded human culture as capitalism which should be overthrown including ‘The Wealth of Nation’ of Smith. Only because Classical economics as proposed by Lenin is one of the three sources of Marxism, shall ‘The Wealth of Nation’ exist.

    After reform and opening up, something changed, but some scholars still believed that ‘The Wealth of Nation’ was capitalism rather than spiritual possession or classic economics. So, the studies of Smith haven’t made any great progress, great attention was not paid to it and the depth of studies was not equal to that of Japan.

    Yan: You always ask us to study the classics of Marxism carefully. I know that you began to write about the monetary theory of Marx a long time ago. Could you talk about it?

    Zhu: When I studied in Tokyo University, I was interested in the theories of Marx. Marxism professors in Tokyo University were fired, but their academic spirit still lived on.

    In 1950, I was appointed as the special committee member and researcher in the People’s Bank of China and then I started to study monetary theory, translated ‘Currency Circulation and Credit of Soviet Union’ by Kozlov and wrote papers such as ‘Several Theoretical Issues on RMB’, ‘Basic Theories about Marx Monetary Value’, etc. which received praise from my predecessors such as Zhang Naiqi, Shen Zhiyuan, etc.

    Unfortunately, I was marked as ‘Right Wing’ in 1957 which wasn’t made right until June, 1979. Then, I could do research freely, but I was more than 60 at that time. Xu Dixin asked me to work in the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences to edit ‘Dictionary of Political Economics’, but the general office didn’t release it. It happened that Professor Cheng Fangwu, the headmaster of Renmin University of China wanted to find someone who had mastered German to translate ‘On Capital’, so he wrote to the president - Li Baohua that he wanted to transfer me temporarily and because of which I could leave the People’s Bank of China. Then, Xu Dixin transferred me to the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences right away.

    Yang: In the 1990s, you spent lots of energy studying and introducing the Japanese market economy. Your ‘Destruction and Its Lessons of Japanese Foam Economy’ published in 1992 was one of the earliest academic papers concerning the foam economy in China and it enlightened people theoretically and has been quoted all the time. It is still in print 10 years later. A series of works by Japanese economists you organized to be translated has affected economists in China greatly, especially Translation Series of Modern Japanese Social and Scientific Masterpieces.

    Zhu: After WWWⅡ, Japan developed so quickly that it became the second world economic power. Its experience and lessons are of referential value to the development of the Chinese market economy. Therefore, with the help of my classmates in Tokyo University, I began to introduce the achievements of Japanese economists pertinently.

    When I was righted in 1979, it happened that Doctor Arisawa Hiromi, a famous economist in Tokyo University, came to the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences to be nterviewed on the invitation of President Hu Qiaomu. As soon as he saw me, he said: “Your teacher is looking for you everywhere and he even couldn’t find you in the National Party. Now, I have found you.” When he returned to Japan, he brought my letter to my teacher, Okochi. He cried when he read my letter, which my classmates told me afterwards. 

    It was in this year that Tokyo University sent an invitation letter to me and invited me to interview my school. I have been back in China for more than 30 years, so I was affected by the planned economic system. My thoughts and knowledge had already been blocked. When I found Japan had become a world economic power, I was deeply impressed. Afterwards, I will find a chance to go to Japan, so I could understand more about the economy after WWWⅡ and I was forced to study the Japanese economy after WWWⅡ again.

    When we thought how to reform enterprises around 1985, economists in China didn’t realize the so-called ‘enterprise’ (whether factory or company) was not a real enterprise at all. The famous economist in Japan, Ryutaro Komiya, reached his conclusion in ‘Japanese and Chinese Enterprises’: “There is no enterprise or hardly an enterprise in China.” His conclusion shocked and awakened Chinese economists that we had to look in to our economic knowledge and learn the practical knowledge of the commodity economy again.

    To introduce the knowledge, I organized some people to translate the works of some Japanese economists and founded the Research Center of Japanese Market Economy in 1992, etc.

    In 1992, I wrote a passage concerning the Japanese foam economy because I found some unfavorable phenomenon in the Chinese economy, like excessive interest in stocks, land and real estate. I would like to remind Chinese economists that the conditions in the Chinese market economy were not perfect and mature so that they should not encourage the rise of capital prices, speculation, getting fortune, inflation and unstable currency. Government or banks were incapable of dealing with them. Then, they would destroy the social and economic order engaging in production and creating wealth. It would be hard to build up a healthy market economy and it would lead to no end of trouble. It is quite helpful for us to look in to ourselves if we want to draw lessons from foreign economies.

    Yang: How do we learn from Western economies?

    Zhu: We should learn about it from Japanese scholars. They never regard the social and scientific classics such as the works of Smith, Hegel, etc. as something different from eastern versions; in contrast, they use them for the spiritual wealth of the entire human society to learn and absorb. They would like to learn all human knowledge and never hold ‘use Chinese culture to manage and western technology to work’ like the Chinese.

    Why don’t you learn Hegel? The Japanese want to learn the essence of human society, so they learn faster and more authenticly. I had such feelings when I was a student. I learnt a principle in Japan, that is, to absorb all the essence of human society. One of the Meiji Emperor’s five oaths is ‘learn all the languages of the world’, which is a consensus of the Japanese.

    When I found how the Japanese cultivate young people, I thought about our country as well. For years, I found that the Chinese didn’t know very much about social sciences. In my opinion, we have neither learned their advanced knowledge nor studied a good way to cultivate young people. If we want to develop a country but we neither learn all the knowledge of human society nor respect science, especially social science, we can’t draft politics perfectly nor cultivate young people, which is very dangerous.

    Western economists have already studied the market economy for more than 200 years and it is certain that they understand more, so we shall learn economic knowledge from them. However, there is something unfavorable in their economics. I have written a passage to criticize the tendency of ‘un-economy’. I am not opposed to using math in economics because math is only a kind of scientific tool. Nonetheless, the mathematical and technical treatment of economics is a kind of degeneration, is the sign of poor economical spirit and abandons its scientific intention – ‘to benefit the people’.

    Yang: What special expectations do you have of young scholars?

    Zhu: You should have ambition and the will to study, namely, ‘every individual must hold himself responsible for the prosperity or decline of his country.’ Otherwise, how could you resist the temptation of the real world? Without such ambitions, it is easy to make use of your studies to obtain benefit and reputation, which runs counter to the professional ethics of scholars or ‘benefit the people’.

    School is the beginning and cradle of life. When I studied at the First Higher Education School of Tokyo, Japanese students seemed to be resolute and were not ashamed of wearing torn clothes or not wearing socks. This is a living tradition with great power that celebrities in old China had. To the Japanese, this is bushido stressing a simple and strong life.

    Certainly, it is impossible to study in case of hunger, but we shall fight for the people in our country and truth rather than seek fame or benefit. Only in this case shall we learn forever. Although I am old, I study for knowledge everyday. In my opinion, only in this way shall we keep young forever. As the old saying goes: “There is no limit to studying knowledge”.

    However, not only spirit but also favorable learning methods or tools are very important. In particular, you should be skillful at foreign languages. Only in this case can you read the original works carefully, can you know the extent of your research and can move forward on the base of others.

    I expect young learners in our country can blosom in their motherland, study hard and read more classic works rather than spend their whole lives earning money because every individual must hold himself responsible for the prosperity or decline of his country.’

    Translated by Feng Weijiang.

Editor: Wang Daohang